 Poster: A snowHead
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Isabella Tree vacates Jackson Hole's in-bounds ski area and discovers some of the terrain beyond. Her report is in The Sunday Times
Sean Newsom takes a look at 7 other places to skip the piste: St Anton and Lech in Austria; Verbier in Switzerland; Snowbird in Utah, USA; Gressoney and Courmayeur in Italy; and La Plagne in France. Also in The Sunday Times.
Any comments on these pieces?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isabella Tree's Jackson Hole article is the best I've read so far this winter. The other powder options were well summarised.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes, why does Sean Newsom quoute heights in feet? I would have some understanding of why US (or even scottish)altitudes should be quoted in feet but for continental european resorts it really should be in metres. Altitudes in feet are meaningless for those of us who ski in continental europe.
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I don't do off piste so I'm not well placed to comment other than to say I'm somewhat surprised at the inclusion of La Plagne even at the end of his list. Yes there is an extensive area there BUT it is very rarely useable for one reason or another. I have seen it tracked out a couple of times so it is used sometimes - but I have yet to see anyone actually on it when I've looked at the area from other bits of LP on several visits. I know of at least one snowHead (JT?) who went last January specifically to ski the area but he and his group were unable to do so because of avalanche risks. OK, that can happen anywhere - but still LP is not generally known as an off-piste resort, in my opinion. Most reviewers rate it on the extensive blue/red cruising possibilities.
Anyone better qualified than me to comment further?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Actually I think she is technically wrong with JH having the longest vertical drop in the US.
I beileve Snowmass has that in the bag, I do appreciate there village lifts etc but there all in the resort 6 account for vertical.
Many years ago I went Heli Skiing in JH area Not sure if there anyone operating there still ?
Maybe Bob Peters can confirm & comment on the article as well ?
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
Anyone better qualified than me to comment further? |
I think in the article they talk about the Bellecote north face which often would be unskiable due to avalanche risk but is a vaste area so I have trouble believing that it was tracked out. The problem is that a lot of the routes are beyond even advanced skier's abilities. I have a family now so wouldn't ski, say the Vallencant couloir and a number of the local guides won't go there because they can be skiing less exposed stuff with clients. As one guy told me "why risk your whole season's livelyhood?". They certainly wouldn't take clients they hadn't skied with elsewhere.
There is a lot more to la Plagne than the Bellecote though and because it is such as blues and reds resort there is a lot of OP especially if you are prepared to climb a few meters and look over a ridge. This article should give you an idea:
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Savoie/La-Plagne-Off-Piste
hardly a secret spot though.
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What I found a bit strange, and it may have been hurt European pride, was her suggestion that European skiers would shy away from the skiing at Jackson as it was two difficult. My friend skied there last year and thought the resort was tame. He said Corbet's was 'a jump, then a pretty average couloir'. He wasn't being disparaging for the sake of it, he went there because he had heard it was so good.
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Regarding LP, we went there to have a look at the Bellecote and thought that once you got above Roche del Mio -spelling - it woud have plenty to offer and we would have looked at the North Face options had the top been open. As it wasn't I can't say but even the map looks enticing which ever run you do without the North Face type skiing that davidof's links to.
At the time I was there jan 18, 2005 the place was really bare and then it snowed for a week. Not surpringly the top wasn't open after that but wouldn't rush back there unless it was
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Steve Sparks yes (I'm following your track off=piste, here) in fact why the need to continue using imperial units???? To me (ex-Kiwi) feet mean the things on the end of yer legs. I do wish the rest of the world would catch up with the metric system of measurement. The persistent use of imperial certainly makes length/height-comparisons a pain in the neck....
BTW it's perverse that domestically the UK insists weights are measured in metrics but persists in measuring distance imperially.
Sorry, am coming back on track now....
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JT, funny, given our weekend's conversation, that Gressoney gets a mention.
I don't quite see why Gressoney rates it as an off piste destination. There is not, AFAIK, a great deal of lift served off-piste, the snow is rarely excellent and while Monte Rosa has a reputation for touring I can think of better. Likewise, where does Alagna get off calling itself a "Free-ride Paradise"? The only good lift served bowl got pisted for last season!
Really, I don't think so...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I must have been very lucky when I went to Gressoney in early January 1996.
Four days of snow followed by 10 days of sunshine.
Skied untracked lines on Gressoney St Jean for 4 days while the visibiity was poor and avalanche risk in the other sectors of the circuit was high. Then 10 days of knee deep and deeper all over the circuit, especially the link between Gressoney and Alagna.
Would go back again in a heartbeat. So much off-piste terrain that wasn't even a consideration for most of the people skiing the resort when I was there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mike Pow, the valley you probably skied down to Alagna has now been pisted. A great shame. I have been regularly for 5 years as girlfriend's father came from Champoluc and they've got a house there.
IMHO, the off piste just doesn't seem to live up to it's "reputation". Which is a great shame!
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, search the forum there's loads on here somewhere about Gressoney/Alagna. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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>> There is not, AFAIK, a great deal of lift served off-piste,
disagree, there's tons of lift served offpiste. Graham, don't think you'll be disappointed, we were going to get roped into a colouir until the wind shut the lift up to it.
>>the snow is rarely excellent
agree  doesn't seem to get the fresh snow other resorts get. My two trips have also been wind affected.
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, I probably am.
Also, I note yours is a backcountry course? The site doesn't mention skins, etc. but I'm sure it will be fine if nothing else on the grounds that they wouldn't organise it there unless it was worthwhile. I will be interested to hear your experience.
gregh, where? Not being contentious, I am happy to confess to my ignorance of it but would really like to know!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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gregh, my apologies for a sweeping generalisation.
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There is not, AFAIK, a great deal of lift served off-piste
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A stupid comment, I agree, in isolation. I hate sweeping generalisations! (oops, there goes another one).
Let me take a couple of steps back and re-state in a way that might actually be sensibly meaningful!!
From the Sunday Times, "Sean Newsom picks the powder giants — and some secret slopes"and "WHEN THE world and his wife are starting to ski powder, you need some secrets up your sleeves."
Let's pick Snowbird as a benchmark.
I will stand by my assertion but re-phrase it. Yes, there's loads and loads of snow that isn't on the piste, so "off-piste". To suggest otherwise is patently stupid. My bad.
So in a much more qualified statement: I am not aware of there being a great deal of easily accessed, reliably lift served, powder sure, avalanche safe, no guide required, off piste in Monterosa.
1. As far as I can determine Monterosa just doesn't get the quantities, frequencies and quality of powder that Utah (or Wyoming) gets. Someone please prove me wrong and save me 35 hours flying in March. Mike Pow, you were very, very lucky. What a fabulous trip. I am jealous.
It does have huge amounts of non-pisted snow, but the point of the article was powder. And not just 5cms dusting overnight. I mean, over your head, snorkels out, big silly grins, elevator powder.
2. Lift served. I haven't skied Snowbird, but I believe a reasonable analog is Alta. There are wild lines off just about every lift. You don't need a guide as everything is "inbounds".
Yes, there are good routes down from Punta Indren into Gressoney and some wicked lines from Punta Indren back to Alagna but you are at the mercy of the wind and the Punta Indren lift. And that ridiculous basket contraption for your return. And you're not necessarily going to be skiing powder.
3. And you really want a guide. In fact, for the whole area you really want a guide if you're going anywhere off piste.
As a back country experience, in the wilds, on variable snow conditions and if I have a guide and/or a helicopter then Yes the area is truly world class but IMHO it just doesn't compare as a powder destination to Snowbird. Thus, I think, the article was very misleading.
Please, please someone prove me wrong as I would very much want to be!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, you make some good points ... but ... I skied Gressoney and there was certainly no shortage of snow, but wind cut out the gondola (top stage) connection to Alagna. I do suspect there's some amazing powder to be skied, especially if you stay overnight in one of the refuges up the mountain and get first tracks to yourself.
We went to Gressoney too early in the winter. Local guides told us to return in late spring for the best experiences up there.
As for the USA, I've skied there around 6 times and never experienced the powder you see in the movies. Those trips have included Snowbird, Alta, Vail, Breckenridge, Keystone, Stowe, Sugarbush, Crystal Mountain and Snoqualmie etc.
Europe must have delivered 50+ days of magnificent powder skiing to me. Bad timing and bad luck probably contributed to this contrast, but even Utah in March was rainy for me!
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If you want avalanche safe powder skiing doesn't that pretty much rule out Europe altogether? Unless you stick to slopes of 20 degrees or less? I know there are a few places which are making ungroomed areas safe now but the general rule is that you're looking after yourself
Oh, and I am all in favour of rubbish lifts in "off-piste meccas" - they stop the place getting crowded and it tracks out more slowly
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Powder just means off piste to the Sunday Times market. How many times have you head, 'man, I skied powder today' when you have been on the same route and it's just an off piste run?
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I've been to Monterosa 4 times in 5 years and will not be going back this year. I thinks it a great place but have never had good snow. We have varied our times of the holiday to catch some fresh snow and may just have been unlucky. The area is served by Southern winds from the Med and even the guides conceed that this can be the downfall of the region.
I wouldn't want to put anyone off and GrahamN should get to some great slopes with a guide but I agree that lift serve stuff isn't so great. Olen isn't the slope it was - for good or bad but in good snow it will still be pretty decent. The Mos and higher canyons are interesting and Stolen is a decent adventure but I agree you need a guide to get upto the Col De L and the likes of Malfatta. And once the Punta Indren old cable goes - no plans to replace it as far as I know - that will rob the area of much needed height. Tourers may want this but it will diminish lift served terrain.
Now if you on skins or have a heli, then you are talking about a different place IMV but that isn't within the realms of most skiers remit, I think.
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David Goldsmith, true, very true. We had a cracking first run of 2004 on New Years morning down from the Refuge Guglielmina (3,000m) having brought the new year in up there. An a very pleasant 6-8" of fresh, brilliant blue skies, everything to blow a Hogmanay hangover away. But you have to be lucky. You clearly were not lucky in Utah! I hope next March is rather snowier!
Arno, yes, I agree, I believe it does. So am I, I am just not in favour of journalists who do not do their research!
flicksta, so true. But then, how many are fortunate enough to have skied "real" powder?
JT, indeed.
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David Murdoch,
Not many. I would think I have head <10 proper powder days, out of more off piste days then I can remember. However, some of my best days have been without powder. How good could they have been!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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flicksta, oh yes, you don't need powder but...
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David Murdoch,
Re: Monte Rosa circuit, skiers right off Passo Salati down to Staffal and underneath the Stafal-Sant'Anna gondola to name just two.
David Goldsmith,
You've been very unlucky in the States IMHO.
flicksta,
If you know which resorts to visit on which days, which runs to hit at certain times of the day, and you're comfortable skiing the trees, you can have 10 proper powder days a MONTH in Utah, northern Montana, interior British Columbia, Argentina and Chile.
On my last trip to Argentina & Chile I skied 12 days, of which 10 were legitimate boot-top or deeper powder days either in freshly fallen snow or in older, undisturbed powder on sheltered slopes that required no more than 20 minutes of hiking / traversing.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 1-11-05 16:49; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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>> I am not aware of there being a great deal of easily accessed, reliably lift served, powder sure, avalanche safe, no guide required, off >>piste in Monterosa
Now your being more specific 
We've always taken guides, and have found really good off piste skiing, some powder (days after a storm). Most involved a long traverse, or in once case walk across frozen lake and up the other side!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
you can have 10 proper powder days a MONTH in Utah, northern Montana, interior British Columbia, Argentina and Chile
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Mike, I know my geography is a bit American in its quality but none of those are in Europe are they? And, how do you manage that while holding down a full time job? One could say the same about Europe last season. Also, clearly, even just by the evidence that you've skied in S. America, you are not the average skier now are you? 
Re Monterosa, I prefer to start from Punta Indren and take the Forcella Bors (I think...?) - less hiking! I haven't skied under the Staffal-Sant'Anna gondola I must admit - and will check that out, snow permitting, in December, thanks.
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David Murdoch,
I don't get 10 skis days a month, so 10 powder days is a bit difficult for me too!
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You know it makes sense.
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David,
there is a very big chunky book the guides showed me for the area which goes into hundreds of off piste routes in Monterosa.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David M,
Last time I looked the article was on Jackson Hole, and Snowbird was one of the 'powder paradises' mentioned.
You're right I'm not 'the average skier'. I'm a ski instructor, who also reps for UK tour companies and runs his own ski tours to S America.
But I skied Chamonix (powder), St Anton (powder), Monte Rosa (powder), Revelstoke and Rogers Pass, Canada (powder), Big Mountain, Montana (powder) and the Brecon Beacons National Park (powder) before I became an instructor and whilst holding down a 9 to 5 job.
I also skied Montgenevre (powder), Les Deux Alpes (powder) and La Grave (powder) on three consecutive days in late April 2005 whilst I was between jobs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mike Pow,
I had six days in La Grave, Alpe D'Huez and LDA in Feb, not one of them what I call a 'powder day'. There was powder about, and I skied it, but not an epic powder all day long type day. Two weeks in Las Lenas in Septeber yielded one great day, but again, not a true powder day. Shame, I'd like more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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flicksta,
Tough break with Las Lenas. Best snow in 15 years.
If you haven't booked this winter's trip yet, consider Summit County, Colorado. That's where I'll be all winter - instructing at Keystone - and there will be plenty of powder days to be had.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oh it was brilliant, I'm just a fussy b*stard when it comes to calling a day a powder day. I can usually only remember the last one anyway.
I've been to Keystone, although it was in the days of no snowboarders and I was a rubbish skier. I was in Las Lenas with a guy from A-Basin ski patrol.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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gregh, he he, yes, I did need to be a little more specific didn't I? Sorry... And I'm sure that your book has hundreds of excellent tours in it, but an entirely different kettle of fish to anything else the ST mentions.
I wonder how many Sunday Times readers would be truly interested in the routes in your book though and what the look on their faces would be when presented with touring gear, a guide, a walk up and some very average snow to ski down on. Does "Haute Montagne Alpinisme Mecca" equate with "secret powder stash for Sunday Times readers on their pocket rockets"? 
Mike Pow, See, I could tell [b]that]/b] much! I think the article was a side bar to the Jackson one - it's called "Other off-piste thrills". Snowbird is indeed a powder paradise but Gressoney is cited as a secret powder stash for "WHEN THE world and his wife are starting to ski powder". (their caps). My point is simply that IMHO Gressoney, for all it's charms is not.
This is a great thread though!
I've always had a full time job, I'm not an instructor but I too have skied powder in about a dozen resorts - including Cairngorm, Glenshee and Glencoe. So yes, you're right and it's possible.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David M,
Yeah see where you're going with this.
As an example, Big Mountain, Montana doesn't have world-class off-piste terrain, but it is a 'powder paradise'. In my first trip there, from 10 December 1998 to 06 January 1999, it snowed 27 of the 28 days. Not legendary dumps like Utah, but 5-15cm every night soon piled up. By the end of the trip I was skiing chest deep powder in the trees. If I knew how to attach photos as evidence I would your honour.
I then spent the next two winters there working for Inghams, and had at least 50 powder days both winters.
Conversely, what I take from your comments is that the Monte Rosa circuit has world-class off-piste terrain but is harldy a consistent 'powder paradise'. Yes? No?
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Mike Pow, ooh, wow. I am now weak and trembling at the knees. I'd heard Montana could get quite entertaining! Excuse me, I need to find somewhere more private... That's pretty excellent conditions. 5-15cm pile up quite nicely if consistent! Why would you stop to take pictures? Very, very nice indeed I must imagine.
And, ah, yes, I quite see what you mean - in as much as I haven't been to Montana. I did try and go 2 years ago but couldn't get easily connecting flights that suited so ended up in Park City (Powder), Alta (compressed powder so doesn't count but I was skiing with some very entertaining folks) and two fantastic days skinning up round the Tetons in what was most definitely powder.
Yes, exactly my point. Monte Rosa has world class off piste but just not what Joe Public would expect from the article - nor, IMHO in general, I don't think. Even with the growing "interest" in "back country skiing".
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gregh,
Thanks, but don't have web space.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gregh, this sounds much more promising....lovely photos - particularly 3-18, and extra especially 14-15.....I want to be there NOW!(*) Why is March so far away? Oh yes that was it...to allow time for the other 2 weeks I intend being somewhere snowy first .
(* but I do want there to be snow there too)
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Great slideshow. Your group looks well balanced.
Brought back some fabulous memories of the area.
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FAQ
