 Poster: A snowHead
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This will likely get overlooked as it falls within the Le Ski / ESF ski hosting decision, but the judge in Albertville has also fined the Tour Operator 1,500€ for each of five employees seen to be paid less than the French minimum wage (so 7,500€ in total):
| Quote: |
| Le prévenu a par ailleurs été condamné à cinq amendes de 1 500 € pour avoir rémunéré ses salariés en dessous du Smic. |
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2013/02/20/un-tour-operateur-anglais-condamne-a-22-500-d-amende
Does anyone know how this lot pay their staff? I know many tour operators use the "subsistence charges" arrangement of paying UK minimum wage to chalet hosts on dodgy 'secondment abroad' contracts then clawing it all back with unreasonable food/lodgings/etc charges (possibly even by direct debit a day or two after pay day).
Does this mean that French authorities now see through this?
If this fine is just for the five ski hosts, this season, imagine how much a company such as MW or Crystal would face if fined similarly for all their seasonal staff!
The prosecution originally wanted 15,000 in fines with 3 months suspended prison time just for the 'guiding' offences, so this 7,500€ has just been tacked on top.
http://www.ledauphine.com/faits-divers/2013/01/12/le-responsable-d-un-tour-operateur-risque-de-la-prison-avec-sursis
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The French courts do not see the "Extras" i.e. lift pass, food as part of the wage so therefore it is well under. Travel to and from work and food are expenses. I don't know about Accom.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dwarf Vader, that's because under French law they cannot be wages and are thus not taxed - a perk's a perk in France!
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If this becomes a widespread problem, I can see an awful lot of price increases for French chalet holidays, and unless other countries follow suit they are going to lose an awful lot of business when their prices have to double to make ends meet.
Alternatively, we might see chalet staff paid French minimum wage but given nothing in return, trying to survive a season where their income is lower than the cost of their accommodation...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Alternatively, we might see chalet staff paid French minimum wage but given nothing in return, trying to survive a season where their income is lower than the cost of their accommodation...
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chalets would have to pay their staff the same kind of money as other employers in the vicinity. As I wrote on another thread, British staff might struggle to compete for jobs with locals/east Europeans, but so what? Spending a season living in a hovel, getting drunk 3 times a week and skiing your heart out in return for working hard for a few hours a day is not a basic human right.
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I assume it will be the latter: give them the legal wage then charge for what were perks.
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Mistress Panda, it is about 1430€ per month for a French worker on the minimum wage. I don't think any accommodation used by UK tour ops for their staff would cost that much.
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Catered chalets maybe a think of the past in France. TO's just employ a resort manager and an army of cleaners for Saturday turnarounds and turn them into self catered.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dwarf Vader, could be good opportunities for those chalet cooks to set up catering services though.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader, could be good opportunities for those chalet cooks to set up catering services though. |
I'm sure someone will.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
chalets would have to pay their staff the same kind of money as other employers in the vicinity. As I wrote on another thread, British staff might struggle to compete for jobs with locals/east Europeans, but so what? Spending a season living in a hovel, getting drunk 3 times a week and skiing your heart out in return for working hard for a few hours a day is not a basic human right. |
Seems a little harsh to tar all seasonal workers with that analysis. I am a uni grad, and do this as a way of getting out on the slopes for free, whilst earning enough to pay for a few beers. Just by having gone through the UK school system, I am infinitely more qualified, and better prepared to rep with a group of british schoolchildren and teachers. I can't see a future in which school ski trip operators hire non UK staff to do this job. I'm not saying its rocket science, but the relationship with the school, local suppliers and insurers etc is essential, not to mention the fact that i am CRB'd to the ends of the world in order to do it.
I accept that this role is a little different from the generic dishwasher and chalet maid. But its similar to having Brits as hosts, barstaff, reps, the people who are the face of the companies in resort. Having (good) British staff is a bonus for TO's. If they have to pay min wage for these people, prices for punters would skyrocket.
*edited so it made sense!*
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 21-02-13 13:15; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader, could be good opportunities for those chalet cooks to set up catering services though. |
I'm sure someone will. |
Many already have!
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albinomountainbadger, and there will be more if what DV is proposing occurs.
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You know it makes sense.
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In the other thread, this was posted about wages for chalet staff working for Brit-owned companies:
| dorsetboy wrote: |
Everyone is on under min wage - I get around 100 quid a week, which condisering im essential on call 24 hours a day is bug all. (But more than some!!) But then i get free accom and food, travel, insurance, ski hire and a lift pass. Can you imagine the cost if i and every other rep, barman, chalet girl etc was paid "properly"? Carnage.  |
Just to try to put it into perspective, here are the costs of my season:
€4,300 for a studio flat for 6 months that is 30-second walk from the Aiguille du Midi lift station, 2-minute walk from main bus stops, 5-minute walk from centre of town, within spitting distances of various bars, pharmacies, boulangeries, markets, etc.
€1,000 for 25 weeks of groceries at €40 per week (excluding alcohol)
€840 for a season pass (this is based on my Mont Blanc Unlimited season pass bought at early-bird discount rate)
€380 for return business class flights on Swiss, which includes ski carriage and a sizable baggage allowance
€160 for return private airport transfer from Geneva to Cham (booked well in advance for off-peak days)
€370 for insurance with BMC (this is one of their bigger policies, covering all off piste, piste rescue, mountain rescue, loads of medical expenses, repatriation, equipment loss/breakage/theft, etc.)
€800 for new skis and bindings (purchased, not hired, but I believe you can do season rental for around €400)
Total = €7,850
If the French minimum wage is €1,430 then over six months that totals €8,580, which is more than my season costs me. So, it is conceivable that chalet staff can live a season on the French minimum wage.
Obviously, not all of my costs are done on the cheap - I don't have to share an apartment (or even a room!), I eat very well, fly biz class, use private transfers and have great insurance coverage. For TOs, the total per employee would be considerably less since TOs will be buying/renting/hiring in bulk, using the cheapest flights/insurance/transfers and buying cheaper own-brand foods.
Yes, package holidays will cost more for the end user if proper wages are paid to employees but if I used TOs/chalets, I would rather pay a bit more than knowingly support companies that exploit staff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader, that's because under French law they cannot be wages and are thus not taxed - a perk's a perk in France! |
Can give some examples of this:
My last French employer was obliged to give me accommodation in my contract as it was too expensive to rent in resort; he was not entitled to deduct anything, even water/electric, from my wages.*
I've now rented my own apartment but negotiated for the employer to pay my rent instead, again, no deduction on wages it's extra money on top.
This year my girlfriend works in a cafe and has food written into her French contract again, this is on top of wages, no deductions taken.
It does annoy the French when they hear of a British bar or hotel staffed by British immigrants paid almost nothing under tenuously legal contracts, when in contrast they have a crazy wage bill that conforms to the regulations but have to chase the same profits.
*On the other hand, my first employer, a Brit who employed us under French contracts, did demand a contribution of 200€ towards bills. I didn't know at the time this was illegal so paid it. We also did lots of unpaid overtime because as Brits it just seemed normal. We didn't know this was illegal in France either. My salary almost doubled when I went to work for someone else, even though in theory I was paid the same rate per hour.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
| Having (good) British staff is a bonus for TO's. |
It's a bonus for any business with such an anglo-centric clientele - with good English we can communicate with Russians, the Dutch, in fact anyone who skis in France. That's why French employers will pay you more for being British than they would a French person doing the same role.
I appreciate this is your first season and am of course glad you're enjoying it, but you'll come to see the exploitation system stinks - consider for example that it's impossible to make a living from your wages, which is why so many season workers are gap year types who never come back.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| it's impossible to make a living from your wages, which is why so many season workers are gap year types who never come back. |
+1
I did 2 weeks as a student a year ago, and now some weeks inbetween Uni and a "proper" job. I wont be coming back for a third season at it. Its purely a way of going skiing until both me and mates have the money to go and do a trip ourselves.
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When I visited the huge Decathlon store in London last year I was struck by the way the place was staffed - a whole load of young people (including at least one Frenchman) who all seemed to be "foreign". the ones I interacted with spoke very good English. At about the same time I had to buy fitted carpets for a flat in Brighton - the girl I dealt with there was Russian. Very good English, exceptionally bright and fast working out all the costs, areas, etc from my grotty sketch.
One of my sons is a Ph D student in Italy, in a highly technical subject (cognitive neuroscience) where all the work is done in English. His colleagues are of many different nationalities and his closest collaborator is Iranian. They all have to work at a very high level in English.
Look how many Polish youngsters are working very effectively in places like Costa Coffee!
I think some young Brits might be deluding themselves if they think that their English language skills would get them a job in the Alps with plenty of free time to ski, if they were competing on a level playing field with their European counterparts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dorsetboy, The job is physically easy but the British punter is very draining, that's why by the end of the season most look like poo-poo..... OK the beer may have something to do with it as well 
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| pam w wrote: |
| When I visited the huge Decathlon store in London last year I was struck by the way the place was staffed - a whole load of young people (including at least one Frenchman) who all seemed to be "foreign". |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21511904
Also TBH I cannot see a person who does not know the British culture putting up with the guests for long.
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| Quote: |
I cannot see a person who does not know the British culture putting up with the guests for long.
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 When I used to stay in catered chalets the guests were generally pretty agreeable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Also TBH I cannot see a person who does not know the British culture putting up with the guests for long. |
THIS!
I know my perspective is limited having only worked on school trips, but honestly, knowing the British school culture, what teachers are like, perhaps more importantly what the children are like and how the behave is so important. Plus, because we travel out with the groups, it would be impossible for locals to provide the same service. I'm not slagging off foreign workers, far from it, they work often a hell of a lot harder than their British counterparts. However repping is one job were an ability to relate to the client is essential. I can see French or Italians getting mightily pissed off with brit coach drivers and school kids, even just over a week, let alone a season.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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On our first trip to Serre Chevalier, our Crystal resort rep was French. He didn't provide any ski hosting, as he'd broken his leg.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
When I visited the huge Decathlon store in London last year I was struck by the way the place was staffed - a whole load of young people (including at least one Frenchman) who all seemed to be "foreign". the ones I interacted with spoke very good English
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Decathlon insist on a second language for all employees, or at least they did when I worked with them in France.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Also TBH I cannot see a person who does not know the British culture putting up with the guests for long. |
What does that say about British culture?
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You know it makes sense.
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Zero-G, not a lot does it, but surely all Brits are not holed up in chalets without any contact with the locals?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hells Bells, I would hope not but do think that is the case for the majority of holiday makers who use TOs. But then that is probably true for any nationality.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The French minimum wage (SMIC) is currently 9.43 Euros per hour. (Approx £8.17 at todays exchange rate).
That is the minimum that all companies should be paying their staff. It applies even when staff are 'seconded' out for a season or working at a 'French branch' of a UK company.
In addition, anyone working for a UK company, but in France, must be afforded the same rights and benefits as a French employee.
Like for example, there is no 'opt-out' of the Working Time Directive. etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hells Bells, some British holidaymakers turned up at the chalet next door recently, while myself and the neighbours were at work, and put all their expensive 4x4s in our building's parking area (on the other side of our building from theirs, and with a path leading to our door so no 'accidental mistake) - leaving myself and the neighbours nowhere to park despite spending hours digging snow out of the thing everyday. Sadly it's not just the yobbish young Brits who give the nation a bad name abroad.
Fortunately in this case, I left some notes on their cars and thankfully they redeemed the nation by removing them and leaving notes apologising!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Xenophobia has been mentioned repeatedly on the other thread but we should just call it what it is, racism.
On snowheads I often read about the French saying the Brits ski like goats and that the French don't like Brits, etc. I've spoken with a few locals about this and they have never even heard of the phrase 'Brits ski like goats' and don't have issues with the Brits other than the fact that the Brits bought a lot of property and businesses when the exchange rate was favourable, meaning that young locals leaving school don't have many options here.
And of all the nationalities I've been exposed to here this season, the Brits are the most badly behaved. Even in the chairlift queues they are rude.
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| the Brits are the most badly behaved. Even in the chairlift queues they are rude. |
You haven't met enough Italian children. Trying to get the bubble up and down the L2A glacier in summer when they were out race training is one of my least treasured memories.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ Zero-G let's hope the Brits aren't going the way of the Russians?
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i'd actually say that service in non-french establishments in chamonix is far better than those owned and staffed by local's. I can think of at least one restuarant that is french owned that now almost exlusively employes english staff and another that is british run that wont be employing any more french after this season. Nothing to do with what they have to pay, but more because the French culture really doesnt lend itself to service with a smile.
I did witness a french washer upper threaten a french front of house staff with a knife the other day while shouting "you ****ing *unt" in english.....the diners were none to impressed....
I thought it was hilarious, but there you go! haha
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albinomountainbadger, I recall Easiski giving some of the Italian children a mouthful, as well as a poke of a strategically placed ski pole, when they were trying to jump a lift queue.
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albinomountainbadger, there have been plenty of Italians here. They may not queue in an entirely orderly fashion but they are not rude. I have no experience with Italian kids on race training but do have experience of British kids on race training and they have engendered rage in me like I have not experienced before.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Chamexpress wrote: |
| @ Zero-G let's hope the Brits aren't going the way of the Russians? |
I don't get the whole anti-Russian thing. Yes, they are loud but I haven't seen them behaving in a way that is annoying.
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| Chamexpress wrote: |
Like for example, there is no 'opt-out' of the Working Time Directive. etc. |
just ways around it......
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FAQ
The job is easy, I'm just not sure that your local Frenchman/Italian or European would be able to do it as easily as Brits (and usually students or professionals who are looking for a cheap way to ski).
