'Dive down the hill' - please tell me more...................

A snowHead

I keep seeing the phrase on threads. Is it just an indication to keep your weight forward on steeper slopes so you can engage the front of the ski earlier or is there more I can learn about this? I think I make passable turns on shallow slopes, but need to improve things on steeper slopes, something like this sounds easy to remember in action providing I understand what it means.

A snowHead

Megamum, it's about committing to a lateral move (your centre of mass goes from one side of your skis across to the other side) so that you skis change edges smartly, and preferably simultaneously. If you are making well rounded turns your centre of mass has to move across your skis down the slope, hence the phrase "dive down the hill".

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, it helps to engage the front inside edge of the new outside ski early in the turn. Gives you tons of control on a steep slope, where gravity might do its worst for you as you approach the fall line with a weaker initiation.

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Megamum, there was a thread a few years ago where someone had mis-heard what was being yelled at them by easiski. She was shouting "dare to dive" and the pupil was hearing "dare to die". It was Charlotte's signature line for a while.

On one ski course I did, where the top groups were all instructors (I was in the next to bottom group..... Laughing

) they were discussing this at breakfast and one guy demonstrated - first the pole plant, then the decisive dive. He said he thought of it as "opening the door then diving through it". I found that very helpful - I still say it to myself on steep slopes if I find myself hesitating to commit to the turn.

Someone can probably put up a suitable video.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think a video is needed, I can't quite visualise it, but it sounds useful.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-tips/6987874/How-to-ski-steep-slopes-body-position.html

here's one from Warren Smith

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pam w, I was taught the door thing with the small difference that the instructor called it the side door. It works quite well as it moves your weight across the skis. I found it a great help on steep slopes where i wanted to ski short slow turns ie not picking up speed with each turn.

It's a great feeling when you get it right. The way I like to think of it is that my skis have to travel further than my body when turning as your legs are going from side to side and your body is going more straight down. So as your skis come underneath you and you switch from turning left to turning right of vice versa your body has to effectively fall over the skis and carry on down the mountain. You're trusting your skis to come around the turn and catch you before repeating it over again. For me the trick to this is to practice it at slower speeds making slow progressive physical movements, and to keep on turning for a lot longer than you think is necessary. Others might have different approaches.

But, to your original question of how to improve on steeper slopes, without being able to see you ski I would suggest aiming for a pedalling motion from ski to ski as you make each turn to get early pressure on your new turning ski to be a good place to start. It fulfills your criteria of easy to remember and practice, and I think the dive down the hill bit would come next. The "practice it at slower speeds making slow progressive physical movements" bit though applies just as much here though.

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pam w, I took at look at the video, essentially he seemed to stand taller from knee to hip. I'm not certain why it would help though, but I can try to do it. kieranm, I think there must be a consistency to methodology that you teach and that I have been taught in the past. Spyderman taught me about 'pedalling' in my early days of turning, and it isn't unusual for me to bring it to mind. If it will help when it gets steep as well I will remember it for those situations too. Cool

Another trick I was taught was to visualize the slope as a table top, only the table is tilted to various degree.

You want to do your turns the same on the steeply tilted table as you practiced them on the easy, mildly tilted table. That requires you tilt your body forward enough so as to maintain the same body position relative to the table top.

When practising on a shallow piste, almost everyone are able to put their weight forward enough. But when the "table" got tilted and more, many people can't figure out how forward they need to be. One time early in my skiing, I saw a video of myself. While I thought I was pretty "forward", I wasn't!

If the table doesn't look "level" from your body's prospective, you're not quite forward enough.

You know it makes sense.

Megamum, if you can get someone to video you going down a slope you find steep, you'll be able to see how high your thighs are. As abc found, most of us are nowhere near the right position, on steeps, if we are nervous. You instinctively hang back from the commitment needed, whereas the more you commit, the faster the scary fall line portion of the turn is over.

some great video from phil smith's kids.....http://youtube.com/v/YkYqNKhj5AM

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I didn't come back and follow this up. So, I like the table top analogy, hypothetically if you are perpendicular to the table top when it is flat you still want to remain perpendicular to it as it tilts - that and the angle of the thighs makes sense. It might not be quite was I need to do, but if I think 'stand up' I think it will remind me.

pam w, Phil's kids - great weren't they? I am going to say, that I think I have mastered quite an impressive side slip and have used it as a get out of jail free card on a black section in Switzerland. I had skied it the previous day when it was clear and I could ski it and turn when I wanted to, when I went back it was littered with crashed bodies and I didn't trust myself not to run into them and I jiggled for a place to turn so I side slipped around them just as the kids were doing around the mounds in that video. I also find a judicious amount of side slip added into a traverse is a great way of slice some of the distance off of a steep slope (top section of portette in VT when its really sheer springs to mind) sometimes I can get 3 or 4 times the loss of height of a traverse than I would without it if I really do find a steep bit to deal with. I haven't tried jumping yet, the kids were showing that as a direction change method - I think its easier for them on their smaller skis wink

I'm not quite sure how I turn on a very steep slope (well very steep for me), I know that it ends up being a very quick turn and probably leaning much more to Z than S. I must admit on a very steep slope I always breath a sigh of relief when I manage it before I run out piste width!!

A snowHead

Megamum, the further your body leans down the hill, the faster your skis come around.

As you traverse along, your skis are actually on edge the whole time. When you're about to change direction, moving your weight down the hill allows the skis to release their original edge set. Now the skis are free to point down the hill, and then point the other directions (at the order of your feet, that is).

Someone mentioned it feels like you're throwing your body down the hill while your feet catches up just in time to support it. Quite right! You'll know you've lean far enough if you actually fall over BELOW your skis once or twice! You'll be surprised at how rarely that happens because you'll be amazed at how quickly your feet shows up beneath your body!

Do one turn at a time.

A snowHead

I just watched those Warren Smith videos pam_w posted the link to. If I tried that 'tail release' that he's doing, there would be a large accident, I have no doubt...

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And it makes life a lot easier on the steep stuff when it comes right. I was struggling to figure out what it was about on some of the shallower slopes we first practised it on but then when we went onto a rather bumpy, hard packed under a thin layer of soft snow black it was blindingly obvious from the first turn!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

jonm, tail release = catch the tip and a crash... barely okay as a drill but not so good as a tactical move on a 40 deg slope...

cran

Tried this today, and it worked quite well.

Satan (steep red that I normally skid down) I was able to do some turns Cool

Combe de Veret (a non pisted black) it also worked on the bumps and allowed me to do tighter shorter turns on the steeper bits and helped with jump turns too Cool

I've sort of done it before, keeping facing down the hill and pressure on the front of boots, and I heard people say keep weight forwards, but I'd not tried throwing myself quite so aggressively (diving) down the fall line... I think I'll be doing this more now as it certainly seems to help...

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Wow those Warren Smith videos have some terrible tips in them!

But yeah, getting your centre of mass inside the turn is essential for making a turn with any sort of performance. Doesn't necessarily have to be a 'dive', I associate that feeling with whole body inclination, which is the way you'll end up getting edge angles if you extend at transition, if you flex instead you can still move your CoM into the turn, but through angulation, which to me feels a lot more 'grounded' and balanced. Nothing wrong with a bit of whole body inclination, I just find it a bit scary to use once it gets properly steep.

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pam w, as I said, you might find it easier to get your CoM into the turn if you just flex your new inside leg, as opposed to throwing your upper body into the turn. But if diving is working for you, go for it.

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jimmer, I'm just trying to envisage that. Standing up and trying it, it seems to me that it's the outside leg which is doing the most flexing, as I turn down the hill to plant the pole (open the door). Then that's the leg you take off from. I think.....

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Maybe a bit hard to visualise, I don't have that many photos online of me early in the turn, but in this one you can see my shoulders are tilted into the turn a little, but the majority of the edge angle is being created by tipping and flexing my inside leg. That's pretty early on, so the outside leg is still flexed, next few frames the outside leg extends as the inside flexes to increase the edge angle to maximum.

I can't quite relate that picture (good as it is!!) with what I am trying to explain. This is a picture I grabbed off google images. the skier has just done a left turn, right leg is the outside leg. but he is about to go into the next turn, and that leg is very flexed - he'll extend, dive down the hill, his centre of gravity will cross over his skis and it becomes the new inside leg

neither picture looks remotely like me skiing (I wish) but this one fits better with my mental image.

there's a good series of photos on p 205 of Ron Le Master's "Ultimate skiing" which illustrates the whole turn, on a very steep slope.

You know it makes sense.

So our differences lie in the mechanism we are using (or thinking about using) for transitioning/creating edge angles. What you have described works for sure, when you extend at transition, you have to 'dive' with your entire body to create edge angles/cross over the skis, if, instead of extending, you flex one or both of your legs, you can achieve the same, or higher, angles faster, and with less precarious feeling 'diving'. The movement pattern I'm describing is variously known as crossunder, retraction or flexion initiation.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

pam w, that's what I struggled with for quite a while. But I think I'm starting to get the hang of it...

Take that photo of your, the skier who just finishing a left turn.

At the finish of her left turn, her right leg is the "outside" leg. It's got more weight on it than the inside, in this case her left. In fact, almost all her body weight is supported by her right (outside) leg. At that point, you actually want to stand a bit taller and let the skeleton bones support the weight of your body for a moment just to give your leg muscle a quick break.

With that much weight on her right leg, it's quite hard to release the edge to initiate a new turn. So to get rid of that pressure, she simply allow that leg to "collapse", i.e. retract that outside right leg! With the support of that right leg gone, her body naturally starts to fall to the right side...

Now if she had her hands in the correct place, it will be ready to do a pole plant on her right side, just as her body falls down the hill to her right.

With her body falling to the right down the hill and dragging her upper legs, the edges on both skis are now tipped... to the start of the right turn!

I found I need to do both: body down the hill and collapse of the downhill leg. "diving" without retracting the downhill leg doesn't work too well (the downhill leg is in the way), simply retracting the leg without throwing my body down the hill don't work too much better either. But doing both, the edges release nice and easy. And the skis came around quick and smoothly!

A snowHead

A snowHead

I see "dive down the hill" as a tool to visualise a feeling, not something you want to take too literally or practise a lot.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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This all sounds as though it fits in nicely with the up and down motion, if you rise at the end of the turn to unweight the skis you must also be getting nicely setup to move into this 'dive down the hill' notion.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Megamum, its part of the same thing but explained for getting people onto their new edge before the fall-line from what I can tell. Basically it's trying to get people to move their center of mass (CoM) over their skis earlier rather than at the fall line where the movement is more perpendicular to the hill. Diving down the hill is a way of visualising the commitment you need to make when shifting you CoM across your skis whilst they are at an angle to the fall line.

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This is the crux of flow. If skiing turn-to-turn with no flat or traversy bit, there's a part of the turn when your centre-of-mass naturally wants to cross over your skis (where the "flow line" crosses the "line"). If you don't fight it and help it along by guiding and extending your new outside leg you naturally incline and it all becomes pendular. If going more slowly, more extension and feel is required to initiate it (the diving bit), if going a little faster you can topple, and if faster again you can just control the crossing over of your CoM, so it goes over when you want, at the speed you want and to the extent you want. This becomes more of a cross-through initiation, and how a large amount of inclination (imo the mark of great skiing) is initiated, not by extension as such.

jimmer, wish I could get angles like that!

Edited: bit added for clarity (I hope)

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I am finding this thread quite confusing!

Is it something more than this...?

http://youtube.com/v/lUp607aW36A

After all it is free

I thought I'd mastered this last year but on a recent trip I seemed to have lost it again and I think on reflection it was because I'd started moving my shoulders down and across - not my hips - and this led to bum-out, hunched up ugliness and terrible turns. I even fell over Shocked

As I say I've realised this in the cold light of post-holiday reflection but guess what remedial action I took at the time?

...

Yes that's right, changed my rental skis for 'better' ones Laughing

Bad workmen.... tools....

Good thread snowHead

Megamum, yes, that's how I see it too. When I did a lesson on a steep black run with an instructor, to try to emulate his beautiful, controlled, slow, turns down the hill he was always telling me I was too static and not getting enough up and down. It was a v hot day and I was baking! The sink back down, to set the edges, is as vital as the extension, and helps avoid that "running away with yourself" feeling which is horrible. When we were in powder, on another lesson, he would shout "Hup!" "Hup" "Hup" at just the moment he wanted me to extend (always sooner than I felt ready Laughing

) for the same sort of reason.

I didn't fall, on either lesson, but I had to keep "gathering myself" from picking up too much speed, because of failure to control the turns, so my progress down the hill was a series of stits and farts, whereas his was like a smoothly flowing river. And when I did manage a few really nice turns in the powder, parallel to his, mine were two distinct tracks whereas his was one. Sad

Still, that's why he is a ski instructor and I am a pupil.

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miranda, I'm confused too. That set of videos is terrific, I think.

Help!!

'Dive down the hill' - please tell me more...................

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