I'm a bit itchy as due to the Feb usual nightmare I've got a few weeks til I'm next sliding. I know our leading technique gurus have been larging it up in Japan so we're light on interesting new content.
I know BASI are now into flow but practically what does it mean for the rec skier? I think of it as maybe being "in the zone" where turns are happening through a bit of unconscious competence and I'm concentrating on say the most fun line, or where I wat to be 2 or 3 turns ahead. Music definitely helps for me I've decided (one ear turned down relatively low).
What breaks flow is unacticipated snow conditions/unssen hazards or bad execution of a turn e.g. too much grip coming out of a turn, overly "clenching" because you're not confident of the surface conditions. Personally exposure just destroys me.
Also what about days - maybe 4 or 5 into a week when you're kind of skied out, conditions aren't primo and you just aren't feeling the love - how do you make the day productive beyond retiring to the nearest cafe/bar/hot tub?
Can you improve your skiing by thinking better? I know there's some books out there like those for golf.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Visualisation helps a lot for me both with climbing and skiing. I'll quite often head to the public pools here and sit in the outdoor hot tubs to relax muscles and spend the time lost in my own head climbing problems and skiing lines again.
Climbing really helps you learn to get used to exposure. The bit I find scariest is being left alone to sort yourself out at the top of a line, hands shaking, fingers useless and heart pounding until you actually start skiing and then its suddenly alright:
I'm oddly exactly the same with public speaking totally terrified until I actually start doing it then its not scary at all I'm just doing it, then massive adrenaline dump when you're done. I spoke in front of about 250 people a few months ago and that was by far the biggest buzz I've got from any activity.
Oh yeah and flat light tends to make me suck and overthink things thankfully I'm getting lots of practice at skiing in it thanks to Iceland.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
fatbob, best description I had was:
Two skiers
a) skier a fantastic skier no flow
b) skier same skills as skier a but has flow.
You sat at the bottom watching, you turn to me and say, Wow skier B is a great skier
Or another one we were told when skiing 'variable' where you need flow is that you want someone on a lift to watch and think "Wow that's great snow" then they arrive to find it really isn't!
So it's smoothness, rhythm, no traversing, similar time in each turn (1, 2, 3 TURN, 1, 2, 3 TURN )
kitenski, definitely agree on the timing bit. I went out riding in flat light after a moderate fall of snow recently. Normally, I would have been peering around, worrying about finding me knees near my ears, cursing the lack of definition etc. This time I just went out and forced myself to ski based on rhythm. It seemed appropriate to keep turns short, given the poor light, but it really did the job and I had a genuinely enjoyable time. I stopped worrying about poor vis and just enjoyed the (slowish) flow of the turns. I rode steepish pitches on ungroomed piste and itinerary routes, so safe (in relative terms) for the conditions but interesting and challenging.
I've decided I like storm days!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski, I think that's the way it's it's become for BASI but I suspect that it wasn't intended to be that way.
When the concept was explained to me it seemed that they were trying to find an alternative to the judged question of 'how does it look' with a new focus on the effectiveness & outcome of the skiing in question.
In racing that's easy to measure (with a stopwatch) while harder with recreational skiing. I was extremely encouraged for about 5 minutes until I realised how it was likely to go.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I think uniform timing is something else - good if you're skiing powder 8s but something distinct from "flow".
Somebody dropping a straightshot, running out then prejumping over a bit of crud before resuming ordinary turns is still flowing. If it were me I'd stall into the straightshot, get up bottle then anchors on sideways as soon as I got free to scrub speed - not flow.
OTOH if I camouflaged my lack of bottle with a lot of smeariness on the way in and way out I could get some flow back.
Last edited by After all it is free on Fri 8-02-13 17:29; edited 1 time in total
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AndAnotherThing.., yes I think you are right, how to distinguish between two v good technically skilled recreational skiers, they invented flow
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
fatbob wrote:
I think uniform timing is something else - good if you're skiing powder 8s but something distinct from "flow", somebody dropping a straightshot, running out then prejumping over a bit of crud before resuming ordinary turns is still flowing. If it were me I'd stall into the straightshot, get up bottle then mach sideways as soon as I got free to scrub speed - not flow.
Yup but if their 'ordinary turns' were messy, not timed and a bit ragged, you wouldn't say they had flow even if they'd straightlined the colouir first, you'd say they had big b*llocks, but not flow
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Turn where it feels right, not where you plan to.. that way you follow the terrain and snow, and the flow comes with that. If you decide to plan a turn, and realise there's a drop in terrain, a crusty bit, a soft bit, an icy bit, then it all interrupts the flow.
the 123-turn, 123-turn works well when the conditions are consistent, but isn't the essence of flow... you can have flow and do that, certainly, but that's not what flow is about imho.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Would anyone object if I offered a couple of pence worth?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
2p or not 2p?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
altis, that is the ?
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outraged forum
Or to post truth against a slew of tripe
And by opposing end it.
To flow, to slide--
All more--and by a slide to say we end
The bullѕhit, and the thousand words of air
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Well now you have to tell us.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I know what flow is. It's that thing that I'm still trying to find!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Flow has nothing to do with uniquely skiing, it's roots are in dance and fighting. Creating a separation in autonomic response to what's happening in the immediacy under your feet and where your thoughts are focused to the next two or three moves ahead.
It's the difference in seeing a skier forced to respond to terrain rather than simply pass over it without apparent thought.
It is a mental process reinforced by repetitive physical exercise. . . it is hugely important to good technique. I believe the BS term for it is 'unconscious competence' . . . I call it learning to Tango
There is a difference between that and being completely in the moment, which is what flow is typically used to describe in most sport psychology (which may or may not be BS). That's why I used the example of public speaking to illustrate since its not actually a sport. The original idea came from studying artists. It's also something I notice in programming you end up 'in the moment' in a very pleasing way.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
meh, "in the moment" has always included the knowledge and ability to either foresee the future or be absolutely prepared for it. That comes with HARD practice and repeat experience.
It's the reason Torvill and Dean won so many awards. They had more 'flow' than anyone of their time when all that mattered to the rest was technical competence. Flow is separating the physical from the mental without severing communication. It is a true meaning of "multi-tasking".
Sorry if this is obtuse to some and I truly hope that you experience it . . . even just briefly (I'm in the same boat, it's a rare and visceral treat) But it is something to strive for . . . It's something that requires a lot from you to get there.
Yes some level of unconscious mechanical skill is required, you don't require mastery though. You should definitely go read the linked wiki article above since its a good explanation of the concept.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I read the book Zen golf cover to cover quite a few times, forgotten most if it now, but at the time the results were quite amazing, 46 points in my first round after reading it and the Mexican hat was mine! It was all about being present without mechanical thought or negative future outcome, by use of breathing & positive visualisation. Wish I could do more of that with my skiing. With the golf practise is for a lot of people a big part of it, but you can get trapped trying to think/practise your way around the golf course if you are not careful, the best rounds of golf are the ones when you see every shot in your mind then just "send it"
With skiing I find It's a difficult thing to do if you are a mechanical thinker that can't switch off practise mode and if the majority of your skiing is very practise based or coached in some way. Re the question fatbob, asks, can you improve your skiing by thinking better? Maybe I think I can at times, when things aren't working... There are a few times when on a run where everything just clicks, the snow feels great, everything just feels free, no thought, I think that's when I get the odd glimpse of flow.
After all it is free
After all it is free
To quote Sally Chapman "always in a turn"
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob wrote:
I know BASI are now into flow but practically what does it mean for the rec skier? I think of it as maybe being "in the zone" where turns are happening through a bit of unconscious competence and I'm concentrating on say the most fun line, or where I wat to be 2 or 3 turns ahead. Music definitely helps for me I've decided (one ear turned down relatively low).
I wouldn't worry about BASI. Just listen to the local Swiss, Austrian or French ski instructors. Those countries seem to do a lot better in most of the ski events and many of the ski instructors there have skied all their lives in a way that few Brits can.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
emwmarine wrote:
I wouldn't worry about BASI. Just listen to the local Swiss, Austrian or French ski instructors.
emwmarine, awesome advice! Although not entirely helpful for the other 7 or so months of the year, training in the UK.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
emwmarine,
Quote:
I wouldn't worry about BASI. Just listen to the local Swiss, Austrian or French ski instructors. Those countries seem to do a lot better in most of the ski events and many of the ski instructors there have skied all their lives in a way that few Brits can.
Hmmm.. Not at ALL sure about this. BASI (rightly) has a solid reputatuion for developing and advancing ski teaching - the best teachers are very often not the best skiers.
BASI did/do use the word FLOW in their courses. This is not quite the same flow as the flow decribed here..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow.
BASI Flow describes what you can see in another skier - as described by kitenski, above. The psychology 'flow' is what it may feel like....
Can you teach the BASI Flow -- I don't think you can. You can work on the physical elements of someone's skiing to enable the to flow.
Can you teach psychology flow -- there are several books - starting with 'The Inner Game of Skiing'...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Maximum skill
Minimum effort
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Active skiing! Always something positive happening.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ski wrote:
emwmarine,
Quote:
I wouldn't worry about BASI. Just listen to the local Swiss, Austrian or French ski instructors. Those countries seem to do a lot better in most of the ski events and many of the ski instructors there have skied all their lives in a way that few Brits can.
Hmmm.. Not at ALL sure about this. BASI (rightly) has a solid reputatuion for developing and advancing ski teaching - the best teachers are very often not the best skiers.
BASI did/do use the word FLOW in their courses. This is not quite the same flow as the flow decribed here..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow.
BASI Flow describes what you can see in another skier - as described by kitenski, above. The psychology 'flow' is what it may feel like....
Can you teach the BASI Flow -- I don't think you can. You can work on the physical elements of someone's skiing to enable the to flow.
Can you teach psychology flow -- there are several books - starting with 'The Inner Game of Skiing'...
Sounds more like "feel the force Luke"
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ski wrote:
emwmarine,- the best teachers are very often not the best skiers.
.
That's very very true. But assuming that overall you would get good and bad teachers everywhere and that teaching ability would even out across a large number, then I would far rather be taught by a very good skier than by not such a good skier.
So it is probably fair to say that Brits, Swiss, Austrian and french people have equal teaching skills, given a large sample number, but that the swiss, austrian and french skiers have generally far better skiing skills.
I know whom I would rather have teach me.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lol. Good luck with that.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
emwmarine wrote:
I know whom I would rather have teach me.
Nail on head! And that's the most important thing for anyone, as long as "you" are happy in the way "you" are being taught, who is anyone to argue!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
emwmarine wrote:
but that the swiss, austrian and french skiers have generally far better skiing skills.
.
Seriously have you ever seen Parisians or Viennese skiing?
People who've grown up in mountains and importantly skied lots from an early age generally are better skiers. And it's very disrespectful to the very many great British ski instructors to imply that any local instructor is superior by means of their nationality. Don't get me started on national quirks like the Austrian clenched bum.
So from the above I think we can safely eliminate BASI Flow from the discussion as it's simply an evaluation criteria.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
emwmarine wrote:
I know whom I would rather have teach me.
and me, and I can tell you it would have nothing to do with the country they were born in. I have seen many *dreadful* ski instructors all over the world, french, austrian, italian and British.
fatbob, I think so, better to focus on the technical elements that lead to it. As far as my head goes, I (try to) have the following rule.. 'I enjoy skiiing -- therefore when I am on my skis, I am enjoying myself'
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
emwmarine wrote:
I know whom I would rather have teach me.
It's interesting how people rationalise this sort of thing. I was chatting to a guy the other day who said he's had an excellent lesson from an British Instructor in France. He was very pleased with content and delivery of the lesson and the lesson helped with his skiing. Yet he commented that the Instructor concerned didn't appear to ski quite as fluently as the French guys.
It goes to show that what you are selling isn't always what people are buying
After all it is free
After all it is free
meh, Article is a bit rambling. the 3rd. 'condition' nails it
Quote:
One must have a good balance between the perceived challenges of the task at hand and his or her own perceived skills. One must have confidence that he or she is capable to do the task at hand.
You don't get to that state without skills acquisition and practice.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque, sorry delayed reply as am on holiday. you do need some skill but mastery is not necessary.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
A couple of seasons ago, my excellent instructor bust her ACL before the end of the season. I decided I'd still like a few lessons and, so as not to use up the English-speaking instructors when lots of our guests were booking them, I took lessons with an older French ESF lady who helps out every now and then. She was a bit 'follow me' at times but, as she was absolutely lovely, I decided to carry on with her for a few lessons, knowing I'd go back to my more challenging instructor the following season. I suppose you could say she was the sort of classic "dinosaur" ESF instructor who gets moaned about on here.
I have to say, though, those lessons did some good stuff for my skiing - it was a bit like having ballet lessons. It was late season and so piste conditions were variable but we had to keep the some graceful pace and rhythm no matter what sort of steepness or snow was underfoot (we didn't go beyond hard red/easy black or on moguls) - elegance was the most important factor as far as she was concerned. As I wasn't focused on pushing myself with something scarily challenging, I found my version of "flow" during those few lessons. I wouldn't want all my lessons to be like that, but I do think a few of that nature were surprisingly helpful and enjoyable.
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Poster: A snowHead
