 Poster: A snowHead
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First the background.
My wife's b-day present to me for my 50th is my dream ski trip to Europe. Probably about 15-20 days total. We want to travel by train as much as possible, spend a few days at each stop and work our way through Europe. I will ski many more days than her as she is a terminal intermediate and I will, and want to ski anything, so a mixture of areas with more leaning towards the more advanced is preferable (I prefer skiing backcountry and lift assisted side country terrain here at home - Schweitzer, ID). We love being immersed in local culture, enjoy staying in hostel/guest house/B&B's and prefer to steer clear of the "Sanitized Experience for Isolated Americans" environment. Also we need to keep costs in check.
So the planing is just beginning and all options are on the table. Would love suggestions on anything relevant including:
Best time to go
Potential route of ski areas accessible by train
Places not to miss and places to pass on
Deals on tickets and multiple area passes
Where to fly into and out of (our journey will begin in Spokane, WA)
Rail pass deals
Places to stay
Anything useful
I also remember years ago hearing about a ski "tour" where you started at one resort and worked you way through many connecting resorts. I seem to remember it even crossed Country borders. If anyone has any insight on this I would love to learn more.
Hopefully this thread will remain relevant as we piece together the the trip. I will update the plans as they materialize for anyone to suggest alternatives.
Thanks in advance for your input,
David & Cindy
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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D & C -What an adventure to plan!
I can't help much on the trains, Switzerland is the land of the ski train, but you'll get near enough everywhere else- Bourg St. Maurice and Moutiers for the places that matter in France.
There's nowhere to pass on. My places not to miss would be the biggies, Espace Killy (staying in Val D'Isere, not Tignes), Verbier, Zermatt and St. Anton. That's three countries and with travelling you will only begin to see them with four days in each.
The ticket deals you are used to don't exist over here. Everyone pays window price. A much better arrangment IMO and around €40 a day, not $100!
I guess your most likely flight hubs will be Paris, Geneva or a German airport. Flying into Paris/Genva and out of Munich would work with the resorts above.
Accomodation can be tricky for stays of less than one week. Choose your resorts then contact the local tourist information, they will speak English and be the best place for short stays, helping also with transport links. Europeans typically travel to the mountains for a week at a time, but have much wider range of accomodation, from fine hotels, the classic English chalet holiday to basic self catering.
The tour you are thinking of will be the Haute Route from Chamonix to Zermatt. Typically seven night in mountain refuges. That's serious ski touring, I don't think that will work for Cindy!
And I just mentioned Chamonix - how can you miss out the unique Cham. Boy you've got a tough job on your hands - but good fun! Keep an open mind, it is very different experience over here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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karmav, welcome to Snowheads.  That sounds like a great birthday present. The "ski tour" you speak of sounds a bit like the Portes du Soleil, in France, which is partly in Switzerland. The Sella Ronda in Italy also gives big opportunities for travelling from resort to resort. And Zermatt/Cervinia (Switzerland/Italy). Someone recently mentioned a resort where you could ski between Austria and Slovenia (? or am I remembering this wrong).
If you went to one area where a lift pass covers a great many resorts, and you can get a big discount on a season pass, it would help keep costs in check. There are several, certainly in France and Austria - not sure about Switzerland.
Personally, I'd do that trip by car, so that I wasn't constantly having to pack and carry my stuff. A car would also hugely increase your possibilities of skiing small areas which would give you a lot more "local colour". Without a car you are stuck with staying right by the slopes, or by a ski bus stop.
Just one further thought. You say you want to avoid the typical American experience but trying to whizz through the ski areas of Europe, a couple of days at a time, sounds like exactly that. To get under the skin you'd need to stay in one area for a while, exploring different ski areas but maybe staying in one local guest house or "table d'hotes" for more than a night or two, and preferably being able to speak a little bit of the local language.
As you describe the trip, it sounds like "If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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karmav, Welcome to Snowheads!
I always say to skiers/boarders that they should visit Zermatt at least once in their lives. Although relatively expensive, it has some great skiing, some of the best mountain restaurants of any resort, and in my view the most photogenic mountain in the world - the Matterhorn! From Zermatt you can also ski over the border and down to the adjacent Italian resort of Cervinia. It is a car free village with electric taxis for getting around, and if you are at all interested in mountaineering history the town museum (and the local churchyard!  ) is worth a visit.
As Boardban has said, Switzerland is the land of the ski train - the other Swiss ski area I would highly recommend is the Jungfrau region (Wengen (home of the Lauberhorn Downhill Race), Mürren (which has the Schilthorn with its revolving restaurant and James Bond film connection) and Grindelwald), and its classic views of the Eiger, Mönch and Jungfrau mountains (you may have heard of the North Face of the Eiger!). Incidentally, whilst it's generally true that you can't get deals on lift passes there are a few exceptions - this year the Jungfrau region were offering 6 day ski passes in January (normal price 314 Swiss Francs (CHF)) for half price if bought on-line at least 3 weeks in advance, see http://www.jungfrau.ch/en/tourism/travel-information/faq/skipasses/
If you fly into a Swiss airport you can get a good value Swiss Transfer rail ticket that covers you for return travel between any Swiss airport and any Swiss resort (note the return airport does not need to be the same airport as you flew into, but the ticket has to be bought before you arrive in Switzerland, see Swiss Transfer Ticket. As you may be staying in more than one swiss resort other rail passes are available which might be better suited eg Swiss Card or Swiss Pass, see this.
In Austria, St Anton (with the included nearby resorts of Lech and Zurs) is also highly recommended, and is on the main railway line between Zürich in Switzerland and Innsbruck in Austria.
Hope this helps. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In 15-20 days you will only scratch the surface of the vast amount of skiing in the European Alps, but you will have a blast trying.
There are a number of ski areas that cross international borders, the main ones are: Portes du Soleil between France & Switzerland, Espace San Bernardo and Milky Way between F & Italy, Zermatt in Switzerland links to Cervinia in Italy. Ischgl in Austria links to Samnaun in Switzerland.
You are going to have to make some difficult choices as to what to leave out on such a short trip...
I'd be tempted to fly into Geneva, do Chamonix in France with it's varied ski areas, just to ski within sight of the huge Mont Blanc massif, the highest peak (15,782ft) in W. Europe, then Zermatt in Switzerland and it's iconic Matterhorn, testing terrain and where you can also do the unparalleled 22km (14 mi, 7740 vertical ft) Ventina run into Italy. Then to Wengen and the Jungfrau region for some spectacular scenery in the shadow of the the brooding North Face of the Eiger, mountain railways and world-reknowned skiing. Maybe finish off with St Anton in the Arlberg region in Austria, with serious off-piste possibilities and spirited apres, then fly out of Zurich.
All the above are accessible by train, you may even be able to plan your journey in the evening so you don't waste any days travelling between resorts...or maybe you would be glad of a rest!!
If you had a bit more time, or willing to miss out on one of the above, although train access isn't the best, I would recommend a few days in the Italian Dolomites, somewhere like classic Cortina, Corvara or Arabba to see what are often described as the most beautiful ski mountains in the World and some very serious guided off-piste possiblities (see the recent trip report on here), finished off with a stay in Venice the world's most Romantic city.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Fly into GVA hit Chamonix via shuttle van, Courmayeur (day trip), Verbier, Zermatt, (Andermatt) then St Anton via Zurich. Fly out of Zurich or Innsbruck or train back to GVA. Get to grips with your Euro train timetables and you needn't lose many days to transit.
That's basically the skiers route 1 with enough to do for the missus if she takes down days (except Andermatt).
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Just as already advised above: land in Geneva, take a bus to Chamonix, ski there, take a train to Verbier, ski in Verbier, take a train to Zermatt, ski in Zermatt/ Cervinia, train to Zurich and from there another train to St. Anton. Fly out of Zurich. Plenty of advanced skiing in all of these places and your wife shouldn't be too bored either. I have never been to St. Anton so don't know what it looks like, but rest of the places are very authentic and scenery is beautiful.
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Hey David,
To answer a couple of your questions:
The best time to go for me would the the 2nd and 3rd weeks of March, the school holidays are over (whatever you do don't plan your trip in February unless you really like queing for lifts) the days are longer and a little warmer and there is a much better chance of "bluebird days"
You mention that you prefer skiing off piste, please note in Europe there is not really such thing as "lift assisted side country terrain" technically your either on piste or your not. Having said that compared to the US there is very little concept of "out of bounds" and the off piste is pretty limitless so you can in theroy pretty much go where you like. I would however suggest you look to hire a guide in a couple of resorts to really show you what is out there and to ensure you stay safe, as the guide will have the local knowledge and can sort our with any avy gear you may need.
Places not to miss Chamonix, Wengen or Murren, Zermatt or Verbier, 3 Valleys or Espace Killy, St Anton
Places to miss The Pyrennes, Bulgaria any tinpot ski resort in Eastern Europe
Outside of Switzerland rail is a little bit fragmented but it can be done especially if you substitue a coach for a train every now and then. There is always the hire car option.
Best of luck and enjoy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all the responses so quickly. It will definitely take some time to start to digest this.
Just to touch base on a couple of suggestions;
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All the above are accessible by train, you may even be able to plan your journey in the evening so you don't waste any days travelling between resorts...or maybe you would be glad of a rest!!
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This is the goal. I have traveled Europe twice by train before and found the convinance hard to beat.
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Just one further thought. You say you want to avoid the typical American experience but trying to whizz through the ski areas of Europe, a couple of days at a time, sounds like exactly that.
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My hope is to avoid the trappings of exported bad American culture. Nothing worse than traveling half way around the world just to stay at the mega hotel chain and eat at Micky D's. While I know I won't do that, being led in the right direction by those in the know sure helps. As for the travel schedule, my idea is to treat this as my travels before. A slow meander through an area. I am not trying to see all that Europe has to offer in one trip, but a slice that can be comfortably done within 3 weeks. Something like 4-6 stops with around 3-4 days in each. If this is not a reasonable way to do a European ski trip, then I an certainly willing to reconsider the approach and just go to 2-3 places.
Thanks again, time to get out the map!
David & Cindy
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2nd and 3rd weeks of March
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depends - in France next year school holidays don't finish till 16 March.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wouldn't worry too much about people who say you should do a full week in a couple of places, sure it's by and large the European holiday model but obviously you'll be used to doing quick hits when you travel to ski. Given you've got world class gems like Red Mountain on your doorstep practically & live in a ski town you want something different so I think that is the big terrain of the big reputation resorts that will be the change for you plus a bit of the wooden chalet /mazot/ Scandi bar/ cheese & sausage based diet/ austrian apres ski carnage etc etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I would go for 2 or 3 areas max. Maybe 4 if you have 3 weeks. Any less and you're really just scratching a small part of the surface.
My favourites have already been mentioned: Val d'Isere, St Anton (including Lech), Chamonix, Verbier, Dolomites.
Given all the gear you'll have to move around, and the amount of moving around you want to do, I would definitely consider a hire car. If you fly into GVA and out of Zurich, there won't be a huge one-way drop-off fee - I think the overall cost will end up lower than taking the trains, buses etc. You also have the option, if you're courageous, of not booking accommodation and chasing the powder, or sunshine when you want (though of course this would end up more expensive).
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is guide costs. If you want to do offpiste, you won't get to many interesting places without a guide, especially if you're solo (as mentioned above, don't forget that we don't have the concept of inbounds, if you're offpiste there is always an avy risk). Taking a guide just for yourself will be excellent but expensive (north of €350/day in most places). I would plan the trip taking into account the places where one can easily join guided offpiste groups paying something around €80 - 110/day/ person (and it's worth it). Val d'Isere and St Anton certainly have this option, I believe Chamonix does too. Less sure about Verbier and Dolomites but willing to be corrected. Another big area that does is Trois Vallees, in France (Meribel / Courchevel / Val Thorens) - a favourite of many, if not in my top 5.
Going back to your idea of doing 4-6 areas, one option would be to look at those close enough together that you can stay in one place for a 5-6 days and try a nearby one for one or two days - e.g. stay in Chamonix and sample Courmayeur which is half an hour away, stay in Val d'Isere and try out Ste Foy, etc.
Good luck! - and closer to the time, keep us updated with your plans, you may well find snowheads to ski with in the various places you're going.
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karmav, I would recommend doing your trip in January - we had on so many occasions slopes and lifts just for ourselves even on weekends. And there is a better chance of powder days though it's not guaranteed of course. March is sunnier but also busier.
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You know it makes sense.
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horizon, Yes, there is a group guiding in Verbier.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We love being immersed in local culture
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depending on how important this objective is for you, you might need to make some difficult choices. The biggest linked ski areas in France (in the world?) such as the Espace Killy and the 3 Valleys will afford precious few opportunities to immerse yourself in local culture. I suspect Verbier won't, either. Chamonix is a bit different - it's not a "local culture" exactly, but it does have its own big mountain kind of vibe and has been a top mountain destination for many years, before popular skiing culture was invented. Zermatt too (though I've never been there). Not been to St Anton either though the vibe, as described here at any rate, seems to be more about lots of young men (many, but by no means all of them, very good skiers) getting drunk rather a lot.
I don't think the Jungfrau area of Switzerland has been mentioned - another place which, like Chamonix, was famous long before skiing, and you can take the train up through the north face of the Eiger. etc etc The scenery is a good deal more spectacular than most - certainly more spectacular than the EK and the 3V.
There are so many wonderful places to go, you might need to home in on your priorities - a list of 10 prioritized objectives, maybe? Most of the comments and suggestions above are almost entirely focussed on the skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd be tempted to build a trip between Chamonix, Zermatt and the Arlberg. That way you really get a sense of Alpine skiing. You aren't going to get everything, but that would be pretty good.
You might want to add the Dolomites or extend east towards Kitzbuhel (if you were over in January getting the race would be a real experience) or a smaller area near Salzburg for Austrian atmosphere. Or perhaps add some of the huge French resorts for their range and scope.
(Pam W no offence but the key part about your comment on St Anton is that you haven't been there.)
In terms of when to go, not Christmas or New Year (nor realistically December). I'd go January or March. If January I'd try to be at one of the big races for one day just for the atmosphere. In March you'll enjoy the sunshine more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
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We love being immersed in local culture
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I don't think the Jungfrau area of Switzerland has been mentioned - another place which, like Chamonix, was famous long before skiing, and you can take the train up through the north face of the Eiger. etc etc The scenery is a good deal more spectacular than most - certainly more spectacular than the EK and the 3V.
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pam w Cough; I refer you to my previous post.... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
Not been to St Anton either though the vibe, as described here at any rate, seems to be more about lots of young men (many, but by no means all of them, very good skiers) getting drunk rather a lot.
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Really not true, mostly middle aged and upwards of both sexes & the drinking is a very small part of the vibe.
It's like saying the Folie Douce is the entirety of the 3 Vallees sking experience - the 3 valleys is mainly about a bunch of home counties yahs dancing outdoors flicking their hair about(both sexes) pumped up by a man in a cartoon Bobby Womack flashback outfit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pam W no offence but the key part about your comment on St Anton is that you haven't been there.)
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no, I accept that, of course! Maybe the posts on SHs with the constant harping on about booze and noisy bars have given me a lopsided picture of "local culture" in St Anton. But I do think a smaller, less "internationally renowned" place might enable the OP to get a bit more of a feel for local culture. Alpbach, for example, staying in one of the village places which offer "zimmer", and spending an evening playing bowls. Or maybe one of the many, many, smaller local areas which lots of foreign tourists don't go to. I could identify places like that in France, but not in Austria. Alastair Pink, sorry, might have known you'd have put in a bid for the Jungfrau!
Of course St Anton has stupendous skiing (though the OP's wife mightn't enjoy it much) but there are more than enough places with stupendous skiing. Finding a remotely genuine "local cultural experience" is harder.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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though maybe loads of european yoof getting helplessly ratarsed is part of the local culture?
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