Rubbish Ski School

A snowHead

Hi All,

New to the forum, so apologies for posting something like this!

We've just got back from an awesome trip - which was really let down by the state of the ski lessons that we booked.

They really were clueless.

What would you do to complain / leave feedback? I'd really like it if others were discouraged from wasting their money with this useless company.

I've had a look on trip advisor but there isn't a lot on there, is there a site where people go for recommendation on lessons?

Is there a way to get them to improve - reporting to some sort of ski association or something?

Its an ESF branch, I complained to the Director in person, but he really couldn't have cared less.

Andy

A snowHead

Name & shame here? Of course you run the risk that someone sides with the ski school. There must be a head office for the ESF franchise but again I wouldn't know how much they give a toss about individual chapters dragging them down. Did you give real time feedback - complaining to the Director every day or suck it up with a stiff-upper lip until the end?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hd_andy, welcome to snowheads.

There are a number of reports of people not happy with ESF lessons - and others where they've been very happy.

It's a lottery, but at least it's a cheap lottery. Next time you go, maybe ask around here for recommendations. Generally speaking you can be more sure of high quality lessons if you book into small group lessons with a specialist school, such as one of the BASS (British Alpine Ski School) branches. But they'll cost you a lot more.

If you complained to the Director, there's not a lot more you can do - other than name them here and, perhaps, explain exactly what was wrong with the lessons.

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Thanks

I complained A LOT - they just didn't want to hear it.

Name and Shame is cool - just wasn't sure if there was a more focused place for it.

DO NOT BOOK WITH ESF TIGNES VAL CLARET Laughing

I expect some people might have had good experiences - the instructor seemed ok, but there was absolutely no sign of organisation or communication between instructor and management.

I've had experience with European Ski School in Les Deux Alpes and they were AWESOME. Really well structured and well thought out - an actual course rather than a Tour Guide with a bit of advice thrown in.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I had an awful experience with European ski school in les deux alps. it was a few years ago. I was left behind by my group (which they had put me in based on ability). They didn't wait, just went! Fortunately my husband found me and helped me ski back (I was a beginner). I learnt nothing all week, as a result I have been reluctant sign up for ski school again and have made very little progress over 4 trips.

So I guess the experience can vary within the ski school depending on your instructor. Likewise I complained and got nowhere.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

What were your expectations and how did they fail to address them? What were the differences between them and ESS L2A?

Not trying to draw you into a rant so you can get shot down. ESF (if one could generalise) has quite an historic reputation for being in the "follow me" bracket of ski instruction and I thought that this had changed as they saw the customers more "customer experience" focused schools were attracting.

After all it is free

Ok, fair enough. But its a bit long winded!

Booked a 5 day course - mornings, english speaking, "discovery" level

I was told we needed the espace killy upgrade for the discovery level.

Turned up and got the standard, ski down the slope to be put into groups and was put in a group of 13. Bit too big a group, but for the price I guess its expected.

So, we were taken away by our instructor - first question was does everyone speak french, no - I booked English speaking. Turned out most of the group did which was lucky, a couple didn't so we had to have a dual language instruction, surely if people book english or french speaking that should be communicated to the instructors for when they do the groups (communication issue 1).

First lesson was ok, but a bit of a waste of time - again to be expected.

Start of the second day the question is - does everyone have the espace killy pass - a few said no, so we couldn't go on the intended route (communication issue no. 2) Really irritating if like me you had bought the pass

Secondly I find out that the instructor is giving his last lesson the following day and we are getting a different instructor, some further investigation and it seems like the whole group apart from my wife and I are all on a 3 day course. Now in my mind this isn't on, I paid for a course, I wanted a progression through the week and help understanding where I started and how I had progressed.

So, I went to complain. I got messed about by the office girls, telling me to come back and speak to the director. When I came back to speak to the Director, he had left a message with the office girl to say that there was nothing he could do - I should have complained earlier.

I eventually spoke to the Director and just got fobbed off. I think I probably would have accepted, "sorry, we messed up, we're usually a lot better organised"

But since there wasn't even an apology I feel the need to expose them for being disorganised and generally not that bothered about teaching. It probably doesn't sound that bad, but I really felt messed about and it's the absolute opposite of the service I got from the European Ski School.

Just to add

The European Ski School was an actual course. A group of people all on a 5 day course, but mainly, it was a structured course, a plan from beginning to end with the focus being to improve your skiing ability.

There was even a video evening where they filmed you in the day and went through it all in the pub in the evening to show you how you could improve. Then at the end there was a presentation where you got a card grading your ability in each category and the level you started at the beginning of the week and the level that you finished at the end of the week.

Well thought out and well executed. Proper teaching.

Whereas ESF was just a lot more like, an individual 3 hour guide each day where they might show you something and they might give you a bit of advice. No connection between days and certainly not a course.

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hd_andy, it's a fair point you make. You booked and paid for a product (a five day course) and got a cobbled together mishmash. Did you pay by credit card? If you did, complain through them and demand a part refund.

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Sounds rubbish. Your experience is exactly why some people get put off tuition and go away thinking it isn't really worth it. I had a private lesson with ESF where the guy made me follow him down the mountain a few times and didn't give me any meaningful instruction whatsover. It felt like a complete waste of money and is one of the reasons I'm stumping up the extra for BASS on my next holiday. That's not to say that ESF don't have some great instructors.

snow reports

you could have a look at their website and see whether it says (as some do) maximum adult group size 12. That would be a very straightforward thing to complain about.

It does sound a disappointing week - go for BASS, or similar, and pay the extra.

The French tend to like to learn by emulation, follow me and copy. I shadowed an offpiste ESF instructor and was invited to follow her down the first run and made 8s of her line, this totally threw the whole group on the pitch. After a disscusion I was asked to ski at the back.

You know it makes sense.

Does not our Stewart Woodward work for esf tignes Val claret? Or is it esf tignes lavachet?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

hd_andy, esf have a UK representation on Twitter, get into them "@UKesf"

Their bio says "École du ski Français (ESF) have just launched a UK based website with all the information required for learning a winter sport discipline through the ESF. http://www.esf-uk.co.uk"

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stewart woodward, definitely awesome instructors wink

Boredsurfing, was that the last time you had a lesson? wink

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cathy, Probably the last time he actually went skiing wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

fatbob,

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The French tend to like to learn by emulation, follow me and copy. I shadowed an offpiste ESF instructor and was invited to follow her down the first run and made 8s of her line, this totally threw the whole group on the pitch. After a disscusion I was asked to ski at the back.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

The major problem I guess with ESF is consistency, we've been with them a few times and had probably one of the best weeks of instruction ever, and also the worst week ever where we ended up binning it off and doing our own thing.

Good week was exactly what you asked for, structured with good feedback, made huge progress. The other week was the complete opposite, just follow me, no advice and generally looked like he resented our presence and even more so us asking questions!

After all it is free

In some countries you complain and the people you are complaining to come up with ideas on how to appease you. Is the French culture similar to the Austrian culture with regards to complaining? i.e. Complaining to them without saying exactly what you what doesn't get you anyhere?

13 in a group sounds a lot - did this happen during a major school holiday time in France/England?

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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

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I've had a couple of useless experiences with ESF in Morzine.

The first involved my first week skiing last year, in the standard ski school. Group size wasn't too bad, about 6 to 9 people, so that was a pleasant surprise. We were snowploughing about everywhere mostly just following the instructor without her actually watching us much. We'd been introduced to side slipping on Wednesday and on the Thursday were trying to side slip down a short but slightly awkward section of a blue run just before a lift. Me and a couple of others in the group managed it pretty easily, but the rest were struggling and froze up a bit. Instead of being helpful or encouraging, the instructor started shouting that they were never going to ski if they didn't want to ski and they just needed to try harder. Paraphrasing, "if you're not going to try to ski the lesson is over and we will just go have chocolat chaud".

I didn't go back on the last day, hadn't really learnt anything all week (except side slipping Wink

) that I wouldn't have picked up from skiing on my own.

Then more recently, I decided to skip on the ski school and went with a private lesson midweek, basically trying to make sure I wasn't developing bad habits which would be harder to kick later on. Instead of any sort of lesson plan, it seemed to be mostly a tour of the red pistes around Morzine/Les Gets, following him at speed. I'd already been skiing them the first few days and had been studying the piste map over summer so pretty much knew exactly where we were going. I wasn't getting a lesson to be shown around the pistes. The prime tip was 'if you ski faster it is easier'... well no poo-poo, but I want to ski well, not fast.

Next time it'll definitely be with one of the independent schools!

ESF in Les2Alps lost me many years ago Sad

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

We had a Off-Piste Taster lesson with ESF in La Rosiere through the recomendation of the chalet staff. And although the snow was rubbish on the day we'd booked, the pace and instruction was good. Group size was 6. Think we all progressed and had plenty of tips to try for the rest of the week...

A snowHead

As someone who had a French partner for 9 years you need to understand how to complain like the French if you want to get anywhere. This can basically be summarised by the phrase "you need to properly kick off"

Going in all British with an "excuse me" and a "not quite what I expected" etc etc is not going to get you anywhere. It also helps if you can speak the language, then you can properly go to town on them and more times than not it gets a much better result Smile

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

We have had great experiences with La Rosiere ESF.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

We've had fantastic experiences with ESF in Plan Peisey, but we know who to ask for. What does suprise me, is their policy to put their trainee monitors in charge of classes of beginner/blue run/nervous groups - I can't help feeling that these are precisely the groups that would benefit from tuition from a more experienced monitor.

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The OP seems to be 'outraged' by the experience but I would have thought the reaction should be more 'disappointed'.

Did they speak English - yes. No suggestion that it was an English only class.
Was it a ski 'school' - yes. Classes in UK schools of 13 is to dream for!

I can sympathise with the disappointment but it doesn't sound like a complete failure.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

A lot depends on the instructor. Spent last week in a group of 12 (11 French and a French ESF instructor) on full time instruction. Found it very useful. There wasn't actually much instruction, but since he said "you are skiing well" on the first day then I guessed that there wasn't much that needed correcting. As said above, a lot of it was about watching and copying the instructor.

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tomstickland, Glad you are happy with the experience, but I wouldn't be.

I have been on instructor training in Austria, the instructors there are all Austrian ISTD + Instructor trainers on top of that (Towards ISIA level usually).
We watched a video of one of them, and some of us laymen noticed something in the instructors skiing, to which he answered: That is correct, I don't do that quite properly yet.

How much needs correcting depends on how much you want to learn. I don't want to be flattered, because I know I have loads and loads to learn still. Many would say to me "You are skiing well" but I ski nowhere near as well as above mentioned instructor

Help!!

Rubbish Ski School

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