Worth a watch and although I have the basic mountain safety kit... an ABS pack is now high on my list.
Safe skiing/riding out there people!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
shoogly, Sorry, I'm no off piste skier, but the scientist in me likes these ABS systems. There have been several bits posted recently about these ABS bags, they seem really good bits of kit. It wasn't until I chatted to Livetoski at the ski show last year that I realised how they worked - I had previously assumed that they in some way floated the body to the surface of the flowing snow, but I found out that it was simply to do with the larger surface area and the fact that large things stay on top as the snow moves, They do seem amazingly effective at what they do. I guess the one very slight drawback is the need that the skier has to manually trigger them and this means retaining the presence of mind, and being physically in a good position with their hands to do so.
Safety kit has really come on in loads of sports now hasn't it? They make a air inflated jacket for falls during horse jumping now, but that triggers automatically when the rider parts company from the horse and a trigger release is disconnected so doesn't require any action on the riders part to trigger it. However, they sport a similar price tag in horse riding to the ABS in skiing, so I don't own one and I make do with a body protector - maybe the price of both will come down one day as they both seem to be recent developments. It is good to see the ABS ones already saving lives too.
N.B. I looked up some of that information that I was pointed at the other day and have found a free app for my android tablet that works through the 3 x 3 calculation that was mentioned in the other thread and in the OP video - It makes it very easy to understand when you see the numbers changing on the screen.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 23-01-13 0:11; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think if there was a system that set the airbag off automatically then they'd be going off all over the hill... can just see it in a gondola going off automatically...
Blimey he was lucky. Power of hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's easy to say this from the comfort of the couch but there were quite a few warnings that he didn't listen to. Sounds like it was a tough lesson but those human factors are a killer.
Better to have than to have not I guess but an ABS backpack is not going to be much good if you die of trauma. Pretty sure that a helmet is not a bad idea either.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Been done before - colossal f up with human factors.
That is one of the BEST avalanche stories I have watched for people to see the small danger signs that we all habitually ignore.
I look back to some of the areas I took my board to and I shudder at my stupidity
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Lucky to survive the cliff.
I've skied there, but not that line. One of my best days skiing ever. Scary.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Just watching the moment where he 'carefully' enters the line to check it out, it's clear, in hindsight and as a third party, that the stability was lacking. Lots of wind-blown and the amount of sluff from just his gentle traverse was significant. Amazing how we can blind ourselves to risk in search of turns.
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Yes and jumping in onto the tension zone of a convex slope probably wasn't the best thing to do.
.... but we all make mistakes / mis-judgements sometimes and big props to the guy for puting this on the internet to help educate others.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
What happens with you 'off-piste' people if you get yourself to the point where the only way is down and it doesn't look good - does your kit give you the ability to retrace your steps? i.e. could the guy in the video have backed out of where he was prior to skiing that line?
In some of these situations you must get to the point of no return. Particularly if you have done some jumping down to get to where you are. The temptation to 'chance' it if you have spent a long while getting to that point must be huge. It seems you almost need to be making the go/no go decision before you even set off rather than look at the slope seconds before you need to ski it. How do you all play that sort of situation?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 23-01-13 10:28; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Defo... It's pretty difficult to hike out once you are halfway down.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, skiers can almost always climb back out. boarders may struggle if they can't get purchase in hard snow with soft boots. you occasionally hear about boarders getting stuck above a cliff then falling because they can't climb back out
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum,
I normally go ski-touring so we usually have the option of putting skins back on and going back up the slope. We generally have a few routes down e.g. tomorrow we are going but warm wind has potentially melted the top layer and then refroze causing breakable crust. Depending on the thickness we will take the usual route, if it's really bad we will ski down a forrest track or the route we skinned up. We look at the weather, especially the wind. We avoid certain slopes (esp steep convex slopes) and avoid jumping as the chance of injury / losing a ski is much greater. When you are out in the back country losing a ski can mean a heli rescue or a night out in the snow. The riskier slopes/routes are only attempted in lower risk avalanche conditions.
Having said that yes I have been in a position where extreme warm weather prevented us from going further (above the knee slush) and so we decided to change the route. We came to a position where going all the way back would be too much but there wasn't a safe way down. We assesed the situation and chose what we considered to be the safest way down but left a lot of space between us and only had one person at a time in the danger zone. 2 went across the slope, each person waited until the person before him was out of the danger zone but as the third person went across (me) it avalanched. Thankfully it was only small and I ended up standing on rocks.
What we learned .....
* Despite the calls of "oh come on I'm not getting up that early I'm on holiday" we should have set off at 6:00 not around 8:00 as it was a very warm spring day. Being on the offpiste snow much past midday wasn't wise.
* You should know when tocall it quits when conditions are bad and not keep pressing on.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Wed 23-01-13 14:59; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Megamum, skiers can almost always climb back out.
Only had to do this once, the trouble is in waist deep snow its a killer, you get exhausted (well I do) pretty quick.
I was pretty surprised with the footage at the end of the video, if this was the same day but earlier, then as the guy says they were not reading the risks or just ignoring them because it was towards the end of the season and they wanted a great powder day to finish off with, they had already set off a couple of small slides behind them, I hope that if it was me then I would have gone and sat in the sun earlier had a nice cold beer and thought about the great runs rather than having to get a heli to hospital.
good video thanks for posting.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm constantly amazed at footage like this. When people clearly either make the wrong decision or dont have the first clue about assessing conditions, the general reaction is that the most important thing is the gear they used and I gotta get me one of those. The moral from this story should be I gotta gain some knowledge and the confidence to back out and live to fight another day - thats your best tool for travelling in avvy terrain
Has the advance of safety gear (beacons, airbags, snorkels etc) increased the perceived mitigation? Am I going out in High risk with my gear when previously i'd only go out in Moderate?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Agree with Barry, at the end you see them skiing the day before setting off little slides in the exact same place almost with his mate a few yards ahead, and for him to say he entered it cautiously is a bit of a joke, he stopped looked down and them bommed it into the convex part where you can see the sun beating down on it...
Doesn't look like there was much avalanche assessment going on here, more interested in skiing a cool line.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That vid posted by Shoogly was posted here a year ago or so, and I remember thinking how lucky that guy was. Quite a commentary on youtube from the guy involved in the Avi. I also love the start of the vid with the slow-mo shadow - perfect skiing conditions.
Pretty sobering video. Though jumping those rocks onto that steep face wasn't the best move and you could see the snow was wind blown. Easy to say for me I guess, I certainly get carried away with the skiing sometimes. I did notice at the end he still had his ski pole attached via the strap, he should learn to not wear straps for free-riding. Probably restricted his arm mobility when he stopped and could have dragged him under further or snagged on something on the way down. Also no straps when skiing trees is a good idea. ABS certainly performed though would he have skied that line not wearing it?
The result of provoking an avalanche burial when skiing with your Holy Trinity carrying pals in avalanche prone terrain is somewhere between Russian Roulette and Mutual Assured Destruction. People know that even if someone is able to execute a rapid search, find and excavation, survival rates really aren't that great anyway.
As flotation devices could easily change that dynamic in a group, I wouldn't be surprised to see injuries and deaths rising markedly as more people buy them.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Very good and salutary video - thanks for posting. Obviously some of his points about assessing avalanche danger need to be explored further by people to understand them, but people can look elsewhere for that.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Good link. Good music on it too.
Those ABS backpacks are becoming really common. They're the equivalent of helmets 10 years ago. Went up the jumbo from Tortin (4 vallees) one day just after it opened between Xmas/NY, after a recent fall, only about 20-25 in there and I think we were the only ones without them. We were the only ones to go down the 'safe' red to Chaux too, which might as well of been off-piste.
I went to one of Henry's Avalanche Talk a couple of years ago and I can't remember the exact stat. but a very high percentage of all (ski/board) avalanche deaths occur within 24 hours of a significant snowfall. Don't ski anything dodgy within that first 24 hours and you dramatically reduce your statistical odds. What is dodgy ? Well there's the crux because what you want to ski is likely to have at least some element of risk and you can only approximate it. And not far behind that is the fact you want to ski it before the next guy. Decisions, decisions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Megamum wrote:
There have been several bits posted recently about these ABS bags, they seem really good bits of kit.
Really? Would he actually have skied there without an ABS? Arguably his ABS put him in hospital.
Quote:
It wasn't until I chatted to Livetoski at the ski show last year that I realised how they worked - I had previously assumed that they in some way floated the body to the surface of the flowing snow, but I found out that it was simply to do with the larger surface area and the fact that large things stay on top as the snow moves,
The "Brazil nut" effect. When you open a box of mixed nuts, the Brazil nuts are on the top and the sunflower seeds at the bottom. Also works for muesli, as the dried fruit is always at the top of the box and the fine powder at the bottom.
This is because, in a collection of objects of different sizes, in order for an object to move down in the pile, there has to be a void beneath it which is the size of the item; if there's anything at all in the way then it's not going to move down. So the odds of a big void - big enough for a piece of dried fruit - opening up are much smaller than the odds of a small void - just big enough for a bit of dust - opening up.
Hence the biggest objects go up, even thought they are heavier than - and often even if they are denser than - the smaller objects.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
^ I think with today's forecasting services and available theory courses, you can do a bit better than approximate.
How many people know which direction the slope they're looking at is facing? How many people know there is likely a local daily avvy forecast available in established ski areas? Those two (pretty easy & minimal burden) pieces of information alone can greatly & properly mitigate risk. Add in recent & current weather, right up to pit / layer analysis etc., then it aint very difficult to increase your knowledge
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
^ No, the factors you point to can dramatically improve an assessment of risk but for practical purposes it will always be an approximate assessment of risk.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Watching and reading all the avy stories and clips over the past few weeks had started to scare the crap out of me. I ski mostly off piste (btw the pistes mostly) but sometimes off a bit further and to be honest have never really thought to much about avy danagers apart from looking at the avy risk and seeing if other peope have skied down it. Very stupid I know. I guess a lot of skiing has been done in Canada were the entire resort within boundaries is "safe". In Europe we are not so lucky!
Does any one know of some good theory reading I can access on the net to help increase my knowledge on the avy risk and the factors that influence it. I know this is not as good as a course on the mountain bit it is start. Its time to really start paying attention...i may have lucky up to now!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Nickski, Cat 5 - natural avvy's WILL occur - aint approximate, its based on physical analysis of the snow pack, supplemented by weather conditions etc
splitting hairs maybe - my point was that knowing and heeding the conditions is a much better mitigation than dismissing forecasting as unreliable and unknown and relying on equipment to keep you safe
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
James the Last wrote:
Megamum wrote:
There have been several bits posted recently about these ABS bags, they seem really good bits of kit.
Really? Would he actually have skied there without an ABS? Arguably his ABS put him in hospital.
And it was only the guy's lightening reaction that got it deployed in time. He could so easily be a gonner.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
BMG, this is excellent for an armchair course - bit clunky to download but worth it
One thing that is worth noting, if the area under the cliff he was washed over was flatter, then the aribag wouldn't help, as it only works when sliding, not when snow's being piled up on-top of you. This would apply for other terrain traps as well, like gullies and stuff. If you've stopped sliding and there's still snow coming from above, then an airbag isn't going to stop you getting buried.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
... and we don't know that the airbag did stop him getting buried. we just know that he did not get buried and deployed an airbag. confusing correlation and causality and all that... plenty of people get avalanched without an airbag and don't get buried.
i own an airbag, but i do find these statements that the "airbag saved me" a bit OTT. i'd rather have it than not but try to be realistic about the claims i make for it
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
As flotation devices could easily change that dynamic in a group, I wouldn't be surprised to see injuries and deaths rising markedly as more people buy them.
I have not seen evidence of this yet, but I wonder this too, although I reckon fat skis will be even more important in this area, giving inexperienced and untrained skiers much easier access to avalanche terrain... Avalanche education is now more widespread and this may be helping things though (E.g. SLF figures show avalanche deaths are not increasing even though off piste skiing is more popular).
James the Last wrote:
Really? Would he actually have skied there without an ABS? Arguably his ABS put him in hospital.
Maybe. Risk homeostatis (aka compensation) is an issue with ABS as moffatross suggested (see the excellent piece on pistehors by davidof). Hard to say without knowing the guy about this case. Given the terrain (cliffs) and given that he knew that the cliff was there then I doubt he would have skied there thinking that the ABS was going to make everything OK. However, his commentary and his frank discussion certainly indicate that he ignored signs that maybe he would not have ignored if he felt more exposed to the danger.
As I've mentioned (ranted) on other threads you *can* combat the risk homeostatis that ABS and other devices bring by making a reasoned decision about where to ski, this guy certainly did no appear to have done that.
Also, did the helmet cam make him less risk averse too?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum wrote:
What happens with you 'off-piste' people if you get yourself to the point where the only way is down and it doesn't look good - does your kit give you the ability to retrace your steps? i.e. could the guy in the video have backed out of where he was prior to skiing that line?
Skiers can normally hike back up if need be (hard boots dig into the snow on steep slopes better than soft boarding boots), but you also have to consider how exposed your hike back is - it may be a case of a 30 second ski down in danger, or a 30 minute (or more!) hike back up in only slightly less danger...
Ideally you pay attention the weather on prior days, so you have some idea of what the snowpack should be like on different slopes before you get there (ie West-North-East facing slopes will have windslab and dodgy drifting).
If you do end up getting caught at, at some point, if you can find a safe spot to wait, you might consider calling for a heli.
Also, I am a fan of the AIARE courses (a few run in Chamonix every season - e.g. with BASS or ChamEx, which I did last season). Lots on their site that is useful and free. Not to be outdone the Canadian's also have a good online site.
The N American stuff is good because it's all in English (well, good for English speakers obviously), but the emphasis is obviously on skiing in N America - not a big difference but there are some differences - e.g. the difference between maritime and continental snow pack is not so relevant in the Alps (Alpine snow packs are kind of in between the two in character), also in N America they often do not have such good forecasts for conditions as we have in the Alps, but learning about this stuff is still very useful I found.
After all it is free
After all it is free
sah wrote:
Maybe. Risk homeostatis (aka compensation) is an issue with ABS as moffatross suggested (see the excellent piece on pistehors by davidof).
An interesting read that on Pistehors, but I'm curious about the statement "However the reality is that only 50% of buried skiers equipped with a beacon are found alive." That's quite a staggering statement to make without explanation. Is that because some who have been buried WITH a beacon were skiing with those without beacons, or with those who didn't know how to use them? Or are they just not as effective as we're led to believe? Without explaining it, it seems a little alarmist.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
BMG, didnt used to be like that, although i just downloaded it again and it gives the same as you got - on both mac and pc. Soz
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
feef, its the old adage that the beacon's function is to locate your body so it can be sent home to mammy. Dont think we were ever really lead to believe their effectiveness was more than that - effectiveness of locating someone is different than locating them in time to get them out alive, however accurate the beacon
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