 Poster: A snowHead
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Well, the annual fun of trying to sort out a trip for next Dec for 25-30 people raises its head.
I find the place that suits the group. The price is vaguely ok, if they tighten it up a bit using their group discounts as advertised it would be fine.
Instead, I ring them up and they give me less discount than their website tells me I am going to get. I query this, and miraculously all kinds of free places turn up.
I then query a couple of minor details, and discover that the outbound flight is with a different airline to the inbound flight, which means that instead of standard TO ski carriage of £25-£35, the cost will be £80 one way, and who knows how much the other way.
Further query, why don't we just fly to another airport, that your company flies to, has flights available at that point, and is roughly the same distance from the airport, and has sensible ski carriage costs?
No chance. In discussion I tell them that there is no way on earth that we are going to book a trip that isn't all that cheap if it costs us over £100 to shift the skis to and from the trip, and they just decide that's it - they'd rather lose the business then consider changing the airport. With 11 months notice.
First encounter with this TO, and I suspect the last. I wouldn't have minded but it has taken them 2 days to make this rather odd decision.
Bonkers. An industry desperate to fail. And this was by no means a budget operator. Is there any leisure industry that isn't filled with incomptent buffoons that are desperate to do anything other than actually do a deal?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Monium, name and shame?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Monium, I suspect it's due to a lack of transfers from the alternative airport.
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Could be a case of the individual agent not wanting the hassle of such a large group booking for little reward.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Problem is the telesales guys have no more control than you do about flight procurement deals and can only do the "computer says no" thing. Only solution is to go with somewhat sufficiently small that you can get someone who sees both sides of the picture. Seriously though if they can only make it work by charging double ski carriage or worse either the staff are muppets therefore can definitely not be relied on to get 30 peoples' details right or procurement got well and truly stiffed when dealing with the airline.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Monium, I suspect it's due to a lack of transfers from the alternative airport. |
For 30 people and with 11 months notice the TO'd have no problem getting a coach.
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Have you tried a small local agent?
Sometimes they go the extra mile.
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queen bodecia, or the planes can't hold that many sets of skis so they make it difficult. Tiny Embraer planes spring to mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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iglu always go the extra mile for us - found me £200 off another holiday when the first one fell through recently.
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hammerite, Lufthansa use Embraer planes on some of their routes and ski carriage is free. It's more likely to be the operational difficulty of operating a one-off transfer for less than a coach load of people. Some of the smaller TOs are increasingly using scheduled rather than charter flights due to market contraction.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Use of tiny planes seems odd. Sure LH and Flybe and others use some pretty small planes, but you'd think a TO offering ski holidays would charter operators that fly to useful ski destinations using planes capable of carrying skis? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| Iglu always go the extra mile for us - found me £200 off another holiday when the first one fell through recently. |
Unfortunately Iglu don't like my brand of feedback, the honest kind, and as a resut won't quote on my holidays any more. I suppose it was silly of me to object to them holding credit and debit card details for all their customers for nearly 12 months.
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I agree with fatbob. The problem is the dumbing down of staff so that they can not do anything that is not on their computer screens.
Mind that could be where they make some profit, standard and simple and they just do not care if they loose business that makes them work a bit harder.
Have you tried the likes of outgoing.co.uk - I know it looks like they do mostly student trips but they also do groups. Maybe worth a ring. Daughter working for them this week out in Val T.
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You know it makes sense.
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woh... woh... woh...
A TO is a Tour Operator, not a Tour Designer or Bespoke holiday specialist.... what do you expect?
Think of it this way; the TO has 11 months to sell that holiday to somebody else for a non-discounted/listed price with no changes.
Why should they bother to alter everything now, it just doesn't make sense.
Smaller business can afford to help you more and try to create the package and services you are looking for.
Customer service is important to every company but if they ahevn't got it or can't do it then that is that. At least they are honest with you now rather than just take the booking and sting you in 10 months time!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| andy wrote: |
| Use of tiny planes seems odd. Sure LH and Flybe and others use some pretty small planes, but you'd think a TO offering ski holidays would charter operators that fly to useful ski destinations using planes capable of carrying skis? |
Yep, you would, but then you aren't mr and mrs Inghams......
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Poster: A snowHead
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You are cheapskates, difficult and then complain?
Don't knock on my door.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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flangesax, +1.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I found ski solutions really helpful recently, my OH and kids have ended up with a 10 day package for the same price as a week spanning Feb half term.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well, I think I've worked out a way to do it, but seems bonkers. We get the skis together beforehand and call up someone like piste of mind, who will take them to the mountains and back for about £40.
Not sure why the profitable bit of the trip, the ski carriage and other extras, seems to be of no interest to the TO. In fact the whole thing seems to be of no interest to the TO, which bothers me a bit at this stage.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
You are cheapskates, difficult and then complain?
Don't knock on my door. |
When you are spending £20K with an operator selling trips for £500, you can negotiate on price and expect a bit of flexibility in my world. Suppliers that don't do either of those things tend to not do many big deals.
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Monium, typically ski carriage isn't that profitable to a tour op, a lot of that gets hoovered up by the airline. TOs make the bulk of their money from local ski pack sales (lift pass, equipment hire and instruction commissions).
And if you still have doubts about the TO you perhaps should keep looking. Although them booking a holiday still 11 months away probably isn't going to be their top priority (certainly over sales being made for this season).
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I contacted both sno.co.uk and crystal recently to get quotes for a group of 10-12 as the group size exceeded the maximum on their website search function - both took several days respond and then supplied me with prices vastly inflated from the ones offered to a smaller group which I had searched for through their respective websites. Poor show.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Monium, and you reckon your £20k is going to make a material dofference to their bottom line?
Couldn't you have found a group specialist number to call them on, you may have got a different response...
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pam w, Sorry, I was looking for something relatively last minute unlike the OP - you'd think the prospect of filling an empty chalet or selling the last few rooms in a hotel would entice them to play ball.
For example, with Crystal the website price was £569 per person - I asked if they could get that closer to £500 or throw in free ski carriage... three days later (Website price still £569) they emailed me a quote for £639 per person.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bobalexander1983, did they respond more reasonably when you pointed out they were charging you more than the standard brochure price. Or was that a "last minute" website price? Maybe they thought that if you had a sizeable group your last minute options would be limited so they didn't need to drop the brochure price?
I think my point still applies though - they give you a price, you decline to pay it, wait for them to come up with something better, or go to another provider. Both sides trying to get the maximum out of the transaction. Needs nerves of steel, I expect.
To me, "last minute" means maximum of two weeks ahead. The two last minute deals I got, when I did TO packages, were both 2 days before departure, and just for a couple, filling blank spaces in chalets.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w, Yeah, I appreciate with a bigger group looking for a last minute deal becomes essentially a game of chicken. I don't usually pay any attention to the brochure prices as they're always vastly inflated compared to what I've paid for the same trips. Being able to go any week of the season bar Christmas/New Year means I can wait for a good last minute deal to pop up and be flexible to secure the best deal. Likewise most of the people in our group have booked 3 weeks annual leave provisionally and will only take the one we actually go.
As previously mentioned I think a lot of the problems are now down to undertrained call centre/web staff who also don't have any power to strike a deal for the sake of securing a big group booking.
As an aside - I know how you all love a story about Ski Beat - When my brother worked for them in 2008/2009 he'd told me to phone head office to see if I could get a discount on the single persons supplement to go out and visit him. The girl in the office said between 10-30% off was a distinct possibility but she'd have to speak to her manager... Phoned back in an hour, got directly through to said manager as the girl was on her lunch and he said she'd mentioned the discount and wiped the whole supplement off. That's the kind of thing that stays with you - If it didn't necessitate driving to (at least) Manchester from Glasgow I'd use Ski Beat more than I do.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| hammerite, Lufthansa use Embraer planes on some of their routes and ski carriage is free. It's more likely to be the operational difficulty of operating a one-off transfer for less than a coach load of people. Some of the smaller TOs are increasingly using scheduled rather than charter flights due to market contraction. |
Slow reply sorry!
Lufthansa would be scheduled and not full of people going skiing so they can probably squeeze skis on. We flew Flybe on an Embraer to Turin, chartered by Inghams for ski holidays. We were warned at check in (everyone was) that our hold luggage might not make it let alone skis! We don't have skis to take but on some flights on the Inghams website you get a warning that they can't take more bookings with ski carriage. As Andy says, madness for ski holidays.
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You know it makes sense.
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| flangesax wrote: |
woh... woh... woh...
A TO is a Tour Operator, not a Tour Designer or Bespoke holiday specialist.... what do you expect? |
I couldn't agree more. The TO puts his product out and the punters choose to buy it or move on.
But that's precisely Monium's point. He's moving on, the TO loses out and a large group of people are left with the accurate impression that they're an inflexible and unhelpful organisation. I have the same problem: only 4 of my last 30 holidays have been with a TO even though I usually try a few for price before booking DIY.
Being a TO isn't a licence to print money. That's in no small part because they can't cope with the complexities of modern life. If you're a nuclear family with 2 kids, they're great. Otherwise, forget it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| If you're a nuclear family with 2 kids, they're great. Otherwise, forget it. |
I have to disagree with that one. Because I have 2 young kids going DIY is often far cheaper than going with a TO. With a TO I would usually get charged full price for both kids. DIY they average about half the TO price or less.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| musher wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| If you're a nuclear family with 2 kids, they're great. Otherwise, forget it. |
I have to disagree with that one. Because I have 2 young kids going DIY is often far cheaper than going with a TO. With a TO I would usually get charged full price for both kids. DIY they average about half the TO price or less. |
Even worse! I'm not sure which market they do serve, then. They're certainly rubbish if, like me, you have 3 kids.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| musher wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| If you're a nuclear family with 2 kids, they're great. Otherwise, forget it. |
I have to disagree with that one. Because I have 2 young kids going DIY is often far cheaper than going with a TO. With a TO I would usually get charged full price for both kids. DIY they average about half the TO price or less. |
Even worse! I'm not sure which market they do serve, then. They're certainly rubbish if, like me, you have 3 kids. |
they're not great with any odd numbers really, but I think that's more to do with the majority of European hotel rooms only able to sleep 2 people.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boosterfaceman wrote: |
| Could be a case of the individual agent not wanting the hassle of such a large group booking for little reward. |
Probably an element of this. If skiing holidays are selling reasonably well - especially for that time of year - why would they want the complication of something unusual. If it were difficult to shift them then they would try a lot harder.
I just rent a simple apartment out and have always DIYed so have little experience of TOs. I can understand in a way. I have had lots of queries for next Christmas / New year so it is at a premium and both weeks for next year are already booked. But I did have a few people wanting both weeks and requesting a big discount for both weeks - and being surprised for being turned down. If it is easy to sell at full price then why would you give it away at a discount.
Maybe it is a bit similar for the TO in this case. Probably, they see no difficulty in selling out that period next year and it is easier to just sell the vacancies individually than try to slightly customise something?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Boosterfaceman wrote: |
| Could be a case of the individual agent not wanting the hassle of such a large group booking for little reward. |
Probably an element of this. If skiing holidays are selling reasonably well - especially for that time of year - why would they want the complication of something unusual. If it were difficult to shift them then they would try a lot harder.
I just rent a simple apartment out and have always DIYed so have little experience of TOs. I can understand in a way. I have had lots of queries for next Christmas / New year so it is at a premium and both weeks for next year are already booked. But I did have a few people wanting both weeks and requesting a big discount for both weeks - and being surprised for being turned down. If it is easy to sell at full price then why would you give it away at a discount.
Maybe it is a bit similar for the TO in this case. Probably, they see no difficulty in selling out that period next year and it is easier to just sell the vacancies individually than try to slightly customise something? |
Or just thinking about it and answering my own question. Maybe they are just mainly crap at customer service and focus and that's way some have gone bust in the past.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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emwmarine, I will offer a small discount as I save on the cleaning and laundry charges at the end of the first week. However, you are right it is easy to book it anyway.
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| Quote: |
Being a TO isn't a licence to print money.
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It certainly isn't. There have been quite a few gone to the wall and the remaining ones operate on very small margins.
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I'd have thought the admin for 1 group, of 30 was much less than 15 groups of 2 - and a nice early sale out of season too which avoids having to find 15 x 2 people bookings in November!
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| martinm wrote: |
| I'd have thought the admin for 1 group, of 30 was much less than 15 groups of 2 - and a nice early sale out of season too which avoids having to find 15 x 2 people bookings in November! |
Not really, the way I do it anyhow. I just give them the deposit as one big lump, 3 months before the trip they get a list of names and dietary requirements, along with the balance. Two big payments much better than 15 little ones, taking all those credit card details, dealing with 15 different questions about simple stuff. Or at least that's the way I'd expect a TO to do things. Dealing with a travel agent is a bit different, with them (as they are taking a cut) I expect them to deal with 15 different payments for deposit and balance, pass on dietary requirements, ski carriage requirements, and all that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Monium wrote: |
| a.j. wrote: |
| Iglu always go the extra mile for us - found me £200 off another holiday when the first one fell through recently. |
Unfortunately Iglu don't like my brand of feedback, the honest kind, and as a resut won't quote on my holidays any more. I suppose it was silly of me to object to them holding credit and debit card details for all their customers for nearly 12 months. |
haha how many holiday companies have you flamed publically over the years! Your gona be taking skiing holidays in bracknell at this rate 
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
haha how many holiday companies have you flamed publically over the years! Your gona be taking skiing holidays in bracknell at this rate |
The reason they won't quote isn't because I've publically flamed them. The reason was because they didn't like it when I told them they were fairly obviously in breach of data protection law. I am now sharing that information, because I have very little to lose, and because someone asked me why I didn't ask them to quote. Shame really, but the guy I used to work with and who did a good job has now left them, so no great loss. There are plenty of other agents.
I've publically flamed another company who took the feedback on board, we had a chat about it for half an hour, and I was really quite pleased with their response to the situation. As a result I now look to them first when booking holidays. So it cuts both ways.
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FAQ
At this stage (as opposed to a week before departure) there's not a huge incentive, for companies which operate on very tight margins, to start giving big concessions. And I suspect some big groups are a PITA for them (as they can be for the rest of us, when we encounter them on the slopes or in the bars and restaurants 