 Poster: A snowHead
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A few of us are thinking about taking a Nordic class on our imminent trip to Austria. Youtube has given us a couple of pointers but I'd be interested to hear tips/points from our fellow Snowheads who've had a go (good & bad please). The one enduring image I have of this type of skiing is watching an individual (while in ski lift transit) struggle on an uphill track, fall over, struggle to get up and started again, fall over, swear, throw down his poles, try to turn to go back down, fall over and roll off the track into a tree. It was quite amusing but I'm hoping not to duplicate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I started last winter and enjoy it a lot. It's not as easy as it looks. There are two different ways to do it, classic and skating. Skating is harder and more athletic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Eeyore, I had a go at classic nordic skiing this year. I think I will love it, but my knee simply isn't strong enough yet - its harder than it looks! The skis are very thin & have no nice sharp edges, so stopping is tricky, as it involves doing a huge snow plough on your inner edges - you need thighs of steel & strong knees. The action is a bit like the cross trainer in the gym. The boots are supremely comfortable...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Eeyore wrote: |
| fall over, swear, throw down his poles |
Disgusting behaviour, should be ashamed...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you have tracks to follow then it's dead easy, if a little tricky to scrub speed off. Skating/herringbone is used for going uphill. Cross country skiing uses more calories than just about any other exercise- it's far better for you than Alpine skiing 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Skating/herringbone is used for going uphill
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not in classic skiing, the way I've been taught it. You go up hill with a kind of a springy forward push, assisted by poles, skis still parallel.
Stopping is, as genepi says, very hard. On a gentle incline you do a half snowplough - one ski in the track, one out in snowplough position, which is quite easy compared to the full snowplough, which I find very hard. More advanced skiers can do little stepping kind of sideways stopping moves, but that's beyond me at the moment.
There's a range of gear to choose - I have bought myself some wider, shorter, skis (though still narrow enough for tracks) and slightly more supportive boots, which make things a bit easier.
You'll need more than one class to make any progress - I have done two full weeks, though I think our XC area is a lot harder than most; it's not a matter of just shuffling round on the flat, even the green runs have some gradients. The snow conditions make a vast difference; those tracks are pretty horrible in icy conditions.
The last class I did one young French lass gave up in tears on her second morning because she fell so much. She was, according to her mate, quite a competent downhill skier.
I fell a lot more learning XC than I remember doing learning downhill skiing. But it might all be very different in Austria, especially if you learn on a very flat circuit. But there's a lot of technique to it - there's a world of difference between just shuffling round and really gliding, swinging the arms, etc etc. I would love to be able to do it well. I now have immense respect for the XC skiers I occasionally see descending an ordinary sort of blue run in full control. It's a real art.
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You skate uphill when you don't have tracks and the gradient is too steep for the skis to grip as normal.
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I hope you'll love it - I tried it by chance years ago when I had a foot issue that meant I couldn't wear an alpine boot but could wear an xc boot - and now we have one xc trip a year in addition you our alpine skiing holidays. I'd suggest that you stick with classic until you're pretty good at that. You need to get used to the balance required on skinny skis. You'll also find that going down slopes that you'd probably consider skiing backwards on with alpine skis will cause you all sorts of consternation with xc gear. Don't worry, it's all part of the learning process.
Another piont is that classic and skating require different kit. The skis and poles are lobger (IIRC) for skating and the skating boots are higher on the ankle as they need to provide more support due to the technique (they also have a slightly different mechanism to fir the skis). You might want to also just use waxless skis to start with to save you the bother of working out which wax to use.
Anyway - have fun !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Skating/herringbone is used for going uphill
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not in classic skiing, the way I've been taught it. You go up hill with a kind of a springy forward push, assisted by poles, skis still parallel. |
On a steeper slope when you are no longer able to ski parallel (skis won't grip after a certain gradiant, also dependent on your grip wax), you must also switch to herringboning on classic skis. But generally before you reach that point you should shorten your stride as the slope steepens and as you say make a more "springy" motion.
Downhill in a track is relatively easy. As already stated you can take one ski out of the track and make a sort of half snowplow to check your speed. Without a track you full snowplow, adjusting your ankles somewhat so that the insides of the skis are providing the friction against the snow.
Turning on a downhill is the real challenge. You make sort of baby steps to adjust your position and shift your weight.
On a flat track, nordic skiing is easy to do to (incorrectly). But to do it properly (learning how to kick and glide), take lessons. Otherwise you'll just be shuffling along in the snow, which frankly isn't much different from walking. On a slope, you need some technique to avoid falling over a lot.
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fall over and roll off the track into a tree. It was quite amusing but I'm hoping not to duplicate.
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You have no chance. Are you selling tickets yet for the spectators 
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On a slope, you need some technique to avoid falling over a lot.
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hmm, yes, this is my experience. great fun for pottering around the local fields when it snows, when we had that snow before christmas a couple of years ago I remember one starlit moonless evening out in the fields with the northern lights (aurora) adding to the illumination - magical.
I once read a book by someone called "Ned Gillette" (sadly since murdered in Kashmir) which had all kinds of fascinating tips like how to cross a gate without taking your skis off. This resulted in one of our party "irretrievably stuck "mid gate", we were all laughing too much to help. Ahh, hours of harmless fun awaits.....
(p.s. I think this was the one: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Cross_Country_Skiing.html?id=jsoMAAAACAAJ&redir_esc=y)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I once read a book by someone called "Ned Gillette" (sadly since murdered in Kashmir) |
Oh - I know it's a bit after the factr but I never knew. Everest Grand Circle is a great read and once went to a lecture by him on it. What a pity
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Eeyore wrote: |
| Youtube has given us a couple of pointers but I'd be interested to hear tips/points from our fellow Snowheads who've had a go (good & bad please). |
TAKE A LESSON!
When someone comes to snowhead and ask "I'd like to give a go at alpine skiing and I've watch a few youtube clips. Any additional tips fellow snowheads can offer?" What would you say? Start with stem christie technique or sideslip???
If you want to just WALK around on skinny skis for a couple hours, fine. But you'll probably go further putting on snowshoes instead of skis.
To ENJOY xc skiing, a bit of xc specific technique will go a long way. It's not as difficult as alpine skiing but it's not without some tricky bits to deal with. A single lesson of an hour to an hour and half, would go a very long way in enjoying it many times more!
Areas you need xc specific technique on that are not quite "natural" even for an alpine skier:
- On the flat: yeah, that sounds easy enough, right? Yes and no. You want some GLIDE after each "kick", rather than just shuffle along. That being the difference between snowshoeing and xc skiing. Sliding isn't just for downhills. The best part of xc skiing, IMHO, is the "kick-n-glide" on the relatively flat bits of the trail. Get the rhythm right, you fly along the trail effortlessly. Just watch people who've done it a while... And that's actually where a lesson can really help to get started on the right direction: single ski action rather than both skis on the ground at all time.
- Downhill: That's actually the easiest bit. You don't have as much control of the skis so you just have to START snowplowing a lot earlier and keep the speed down. Once you pick up speed, it's quite difficult to slow back down again. Without the heel connection, it's critical you keep your weight forward (actually central) so you have the entire ski to work with. Tail pushing as many do on alpine skis, simply won't work! For us alpine skiers, I assume you can balance on the ski as it keep going straight. So yes, if you can see there's no turn and a nice flat'ish run out, go for it and let it run! That's the fun bits! 
- Uphill: Sadly, what goes down must go back up. And without a lift to help you, you'll have to work your way up. There're techniques to do so but there's no shortcut as far as efforts required. As others already mentioned herringbone, the key to do it right is to put weights on the ski that's planted on the ground (and brace on the pole on the opposite hand) BEFORE you lift that other ski, because that ski and pole pair is what keeps you from sliding backward! First time xc skiers tend to put equal weight on both skis (and no weight on the pole), then lift one of them up... well, there's not enough weight on the one that's still on the ground, it starts to slide backwards! Hence the hilarious image of falling on your face!
That being one of the big key on xc skiing, is the deliberate weighing of each ski that's on the ground, and an exaggerated (compare to alpine skiing) weight transfer between skis. It's not enough to just duplicate the motion, it's the weight transfer that makes the movement work or not work. (it'll help your alpine skiing too if you can focus on that)
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You know it makes sense.
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abc nailed it. The part most alpine skiers will have problems with is an efficient kick and glide on the flat (especially if there is no cut track) rather than shuffing with splayed skis.
I will say that I have had more scary moments on XC skis than alpine skis, 220cm super thin skis with no edges and boots that are basically shoes can be a handful if you are not used to them and are very fast. The skis are not very stable in a snow plough so often I straight line and step the corners if the decent isn't very long. Some of the trails in Norway have tree lined s-bends barely wide enough to snow plough and all sorts, the XC in the rest of the world seems to be rather less full-on technically!
XC skis are a great way of making green and blue runs more entertaining if you ever get bored 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Snowplow and step turns... MIND YOUR ANKLES!
Alpine skiers and walkers alike tend to drop their ankle when picking ski up for a step turn. For walkers, that's how we walk: we pick our feet up with toes down. Alpine skiers, we had heel connected to the skis so ankle movement range is limited. Not so on xc skis. Without the heel connection, xc ski tips is going to drop (and bury into the snow) if you just pick your up feet randomly!
People like narc, who xc ski often enough, eventually figured out one need to pick his feet up (with skis on) with the heel down so the ski tip doesn't get caught on snow randomly. That will facilitate a step turn quite easily.
Same with snowplow, for a different reason: the old saying "bend ze knees"? Result is your butt falls behind your heel! On alpine boots with high cuff, it works to some degree. (Even there, it doesn't work all that well, but you can get away with it) On soft xc boots, there's nothing behind the calf to lean on, now your weight is waaaay too far behind!
The way to maintain proper (central) weight over the skis, again think about "closing your ankle" or "drop your heel down". That will pull your knee forward and your a*ss will align nicely on top of the binding of the skis! Now you have a ton of control!!!  Also, closing the ankle helps to tilt the skis onto their inside edge with a lot less effort.
(not that I'm all that good at it, though I'd say I'm better than quite many  )
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Poster: A snowHead
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But to do it properly (learning how to kick and glide), take lessons. Otherwise you'll just be shuffling along in the snow, which frankly isn't much different from walking. On a slope, you need some technique to avoid falling over a lot.
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+1 The first instructor we had, our first week, kept saying "c'est un sport de glisse, ne marchez pas".
You do see a lot of people just shuffling around - but then you see a lot of people on the downhill slopes who have apparently never taken a lesson too. When you see someone who does the kick and glide properly, it's a thing of beauty and looks very efficient. I'm not there yet.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is snowshoeing difficult?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No- just pick your feet up rather than shuffling them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pedantica, you will need lessons especially if you want to go side wards, or down. Putting them on is also tricky.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is snowshoeing difficult?
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No, if you have standard issue snowshoes, it's not difficult at all, and a great way of getting around. with mine you can have free heels (better for walking on fairly level terrain) or clip them down (better on very uneven territory). Use longish poles. It's very enjoyable, but pointless on prepared tracks, where a pair of walking boots make more sense. Yomping in snowshoes through fresh snow is terrific.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Quite fancy trying that. Cross-country skiing sounds too difficult.
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The only problem with snowshoeing is when you see someone coming on xc skis gliding by effortlessly while you labour along.
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I've not encountered that problem - absolutely NO pedestrians or snowshoers are allowed in the Nordic ski area here, and although there are proper ski tourers, they tend not to be on the sort of terrain where I'd potter around in snowshoes. I walk in summer and have no problem when mountain bikers go a lot faster; it's just a different way of getting around.
I have been uneasily aware, once or twice, though that one does need to think about avalanche risk. In fact one of the regular snowshoe tracks was closed for a while last winter because of avalanche risk.
I don't do great treks on snowshoes, it's just fun for a bit of an outing. You do feel very sure-footed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w,
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one does need to think about avalanche risk
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That point did cross my mind. Particularly if you walk on your own.
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My experiences with snow shoes have not been particularly good, they (obviously) do best in deep snow but anything else (like most xc ski trails) normal boots are often quicker and more comfortable. Snow shoes are probably best used on flatter ski tours A bit like:
but don't make a mess of the skin track!
Also worth noting don't try and decend in untracked snow on thin XC skis, it almost always ends very very badly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I've not encountered that problem - absolutely NO pedestrians or snowshoers are allowed in the Nordic ski area here, and although there are proper ski tourers, they tend not to be on the sort of terrain where I'd potter around in snowshoes. I walk in summer and have no problem when mountain bikers go a lot faster; it's just a different way of getting around. |
Most nordic areas in the US allow snowshoers to walk in the skating lane. The large platform of snowshoes doesn't appear to make any mark on the packed snow surface. Nor have I heard any skaters complaining about it. Granted, it's usually not the most interesting place to be snowshoeing. I'd much prefer to be snowshoeing in the denser woods instead.
| narc wrote: |
| My experiences with snow shoes have not been particularly good, they (obviously) do best in deep snow but anything else (like most xc ski trails) normal boots are often quicker and more comfortable. |
If by 'anything else', you mean packed snow, yes, there's no point in using snow shoes. Any walking boot will do.
But if you're going "touring" into anything that's not man or machine packed, you'll NEED snowshoes.
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| Snow shoes are probably best used on flatter ski tours |
Funny I feel the opposite is true! If it's flat enough, I'll always ski it! It's only when it gets too steep for me to herringbone up (or snowplow down) that I will snowshoe it. A lot of back country xc skiers carry snowshoes for sections too steep to tackle by xc skis.
One of our "classic route" in northern New York involves xc skiing a flat'ish 4-5 miles in, change into snowshoes for another 2-3 miles to gain the summit. Retracing ones track back down, by snowshoes (you can kind of take sliding steps on snowshoes too when the descend is steep and snow soft), then change back into xc skis to ski back out to the car. It sounds like a lot of miles to travel, but with xc skis, it's a relaxing day out, with good views and good exercise.
(and as pam w reminded us, the terrain snowshoes can tackle are steep enough one does need to think a bit more about avalanche risk)
| narc wrote: |
| Also worth noting don't try and decend in untracked snow on thin XC skis, it almost always ends very very badly. |
Not always. If the snow is fresh recently fallen kind, it'll simply part ways at the ski tips. It's just snowplowing to bleed speed doesn't work too well in deep snow, thin xc ski or even wide alpine skis. You'll need to slow down by turning across (or even up) the hill, much like in alpine skiing. You can turn either using a snowplow turn or a step turn. Granted, neither is exactly easy to do if the snow is very deep...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For the record, we have EVERY INTENTION of taking a lesson (there's no need to shout  ) and the Youtube research was just to get an idea of what's involved. Snowheads has always been a useful source of information so was just interested to hear other beginners experiences/thoughts before we have a go.
Thanks for all the useful advice folks.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mate of mine here XCs every year and has his own kit so we've been hoping for snow so I could try 'em in his garden - he wouldn't let me have a go on the mud though...
It'll be good to be a beginner again too, instead of just skiing like one
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry Eeyore, for shouting. There's a lot of noise in the room, so to speak. So I shouted to be heard... admittedly too loud and too attention grabbing. 
Just keep an open mind when you go for your class. I learned to xc ski through a series of lessons (~10). I thought I needed to learn how to go up and down hills. So I was a bit surprised when the instructor had us glide around the flat back and forth on one ski. It later dawned on us the weight transfer from ski to ski was what makes the rest of moves effective. Not sure how the quick 1~2 hr lessons are organized. But it might surprise you on how the instructor go about it...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, Thanks for the heads up
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