 Poster: A snowHead
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Having been taught to ski more years ago than I like to remember I still have difficulty widdening my stance on carving skiis. Does anyone have any recommendations of good excercises for correcting this habit?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One I was shown was to hold an elastic band around the knees and keep it taut (or it falls down to your ankles and trips you up....).
I also saw one doing something with ski poles, which looked even more likely to end in tears.
imagine a football between the knees?
have a lesson and ask an instructor to focus on stance width?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Place two fists between the knees and keep them there for a few turns. Remember to reinstate up/down movement when you remove the fists.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A balloon between the knees
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| A balloon between the knees |
Hydrocele?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Frosty the Snowman, a tennis ball in your pants crotch might be more practical.
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The irony is, back in the 80s with skinny skis I remember trying to hold a hat between my knees to keep them together. That was a common drill back then... 
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queen bodecia, yup, I had to do similar things. A triumph of style over function.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I used to teach my kids to dive, holding a flip flop between the feet, to stop them splaying their legs all over the place.
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Posidrive, If the skis aren't touching , that's wide enough.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, used a knotted light bungee on tramp for the same reason.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Posidrive, how wide are your hips? Some less experienced instructors (and some experienced ones!) get hung up these days on having your legs / feet wide apart. If you have narrow hips your legs and skis will naturally be closer together and trying to fight your biomechanics isn't very helpful. Of course, having narrow hips is not an excuse to ski old school!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Freddie Paellahead wrote: |
The day Chemmy Alcott came to teach some  s at Hemel, she had me deliberately trying to get my legs as wide apart as possible |
Should have asked for a demo after school.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Freddie Paellahead, Shoulder width apart is too wide.
hip width is the aim.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Freddie Paellahead, Shoulder width apart is too wide.
hip width is the aim.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Feet apart, start turn with the ouside edge of the inside ski i.e. not the one your weight is on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jimmjimm, OK OK
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Freddie Paellahead, Its alright he's not the medical director
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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if your boots aren't touching they are too far apart - Old school rules... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You know, I wouldn't focus on trying to keep your feet apart, I think that's an outcome not an input.
Why do you want to keep your feet apart because keeping them together means you are not achieving high edge angles (and has some cost in terms of stability but that's less important).
I'd focus on angulating as much as you can. You should be aiming to angulate to a degree that feels very exagerated, almost cartoonish - you won't be (at least not if you are still upright!). As you do this your feet will naturally move apart (consequence of having your outside leg straight and inside highly flexed).
Worth a try anyway.
J
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jedster, stand close to a wall with your legs locked together, whilst leaning on the wall with one hand, see how much 'edge angle' you can get, then repeat with feet hip width apart.
Which one gave you more angle??
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| Masque wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman, a tennis ball in your pants crotch might be more practical. |
Make sure you put it down the FRONT of your ski pants as putting it in the back will mean you travel on the chairlift on your own. A lot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski,
if I understand you right you won't get much edge angle in either situation if you are CLOSE to a wall!
And if you are further out from the wall but leaning on it then you can get high edge angles in either case - of course with your feet together you will be leaning on the inside "edge" (you know, like those funny extreme carver folks) not the outside, which is very unstable if you don't have a wall to lean on!
I think you missed my point, I agree that high edge angles imply feet wide apart. I just think focusing on angulation first might be a better way of learning/creating the correct body position / developing the right muscle memory -i.e. as you try to angulate a lot you naturally find that your legs HAVE to move apart. Learning that in the abstract at low edge angle / on schuss is less convincing - i.e., you don't NEED the wider stance in those situations so you dont get the positive reinforcement from seeing it working. Do you see what I mean?
J
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jedster, did you try it? If your a hand length away from the wall I doubt you'll get the same angle. I just tried it sat in an airport lounge, loads more angles with feet shoulder width apart 
I think the problem is with feet clamped together you cannot get the angles, so an easy fix is to get the legs wider, which then aids better angles......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just to add, I learned on skinny skis / feet close together. As I adjusted to shaped skis / modern technique I never had to think consciously about stance width -it was an outcome of the other things I was trying to do, particularly experimenting with just how tight a turn I could carve by applying more and more angulation. I'm not just punting this idea, it comes from my experience. Of course, just because it worked for me doesn't mean it will work for anyone else which is why I said "worth a try".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski,
assume you mean arms length rather than hands length?
I've just done it in my office. You do realise that is a false comparison don't you?
Think about it - what matters in your test is the distance from the "edge" to the wall. by widening your stance you are moving the edge further away from the wall so the geometry changes increasing the angle. This has no bearing on skiing where there is no wall!
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jedster, is this what you mean.
This guy has his feet a smidge less than hip width apart, yet he is not struggling with lack of edge angle. His feet are further apart but it is not due to a wider stance. An overly wide stance only encourages an A framed appearance not better edge angle.
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You know it makes sense.
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jedster, you must be more flexible than me!! With feet & thighs clamped together I can hardly get any angle!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Posidrive,
I'd stick to what you got .. it will come back into fashion again!
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Poster: A snowHead
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gatecrasher, Spot on.
His feet are practically together in that photo.
How come so many people mistake this vertical separation of the feet for a wide stance.
I've yet to see a pro skier with a wide stance apart from maybe ski jumpers.
It hinders high edge angles and while it may help beginners with bad balance, a lot of skiers
leave it so late before correcting it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jimmjimm wrote: |
gatecrasher,
How come so many people mistake this vertical separation of the feet for a wide stance.
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jimmjimm,
I know, worrying isn't it!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jedster, jimmjimm, gatecrasher, you are each my hero.
This "wide stance" mantra has been bugging me for years, because it's so often touted as the way to learn high speed carving.
For me it's a sure way to generate an A-frame, and doesn't help at all in getting high edge angles.
In fact I've seen it generate truly horrible "outrigger" turns like this
This may have been all the rage in '72, but it's not Ted Ligety.
When I want to get high edge angle, I just lift the inside foot vertically. Do this standing in your office, and you'll fall over. Do this standing in your office with a hand on the wall and you'll learn nothing. You need to do it at speed, on skis, and notice how incredibly easy it is to control edge angle.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, are you saying that you're forcing your knees together so they're stuck? Does the same effect happen if you keep them 1cm apart?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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awf,  love that picture, as you are aware, the only thing that "widens" through a high angled carve are..... the tracks!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In fact, now I think about it: the wider your stance, the lower your inside edge angle must be. Even if you put a beachball between your knees, you can always get higher inside edge angle by putting your ankles together. Then you really will look like John Wayne (i.e. bowlegged).
Just remember the clue from the picture above: "Wayne Wrong" (for it is indeed Wayne Wong in the pic, from greatoutdoors.com)
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awf, if I ever look even half as cool as that guy, I can die happy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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queen bodecia
"The irony is, back in the 80s with skinny skis I remember trying to hold a hat between my knees to keep them together. That was a common drill back then... "
You can now use a helmet.
No rudeness required...
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rob@rar, totally agree that one should be able to set edges to whatever angle, whatever the initial stance. So whether your initial stance (ie. at the end of the glide phase, i.e. the beginning of the turn) is narrow or wide, you should always end up like Ted above (ideally, the extent to which an individual might achieve it can vary ).
What I, and I think others, disagree with is the insistence on a wide glide. What further irks me (us?) is that the given explanations, often involving unconvincing static demos like the office wall example above, don't actually stand up to scrutiny. A narrow glide does not restrict the range of edge angles you can achieve. It doesn't. It really really doesn't. OK, boot-out, but that's not what we're talking about. And telling students, of any ability, stuff that they can see to be false makes them confused and cross.
An explanation that makes sense to me is this: A wide glide offers better balance. And that's it. The best glide has both skis completely flat against the snow, equally weighted, and pointing in the direction of travel. You can achieve that with 10-50cm between the skis, although the latter may produce a somewhat ungainly combination of splayed hips and ankle rotation.
The outrigger is of course a perfectly good exercise to teach people something about carving at low speed -- you can get the feeling of the carved outside edge, and the impressive radius tightening obtainable from high edge angle, without needing the centripetal force of a true carve. But it's not an end in itself, and nowadays looks imv silly. It's a potentially undesired side effect that is encouraged by teaching a wide stance much more than a narrow one. PS Mr Piehole, you should try it, it's unbelievably easy. Although you'll need the retro clothing and shades to achieve true coolness
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