 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi there,
As someone who does not know much at all about avalanche safety I am wondering when I see people going down powder off the piste slopes between pistes - how safe is this?
I ask because I have read articles saying thins like a lot of avalanches are caused within sight of pistes by people who don't know what they are doing. OTOH it seems to me a lot of people routinely leave the piste to ski in powder and if it was really dangerous they would not be...but maybe they know how to tell if it is safe or not? Or maybe they are just unaware what they are doing is dangerous?
Should I basically not venture away from pistes at all, without learning about avalanche risk or is it actually pretty safe to e.g. take routes off-piste between pistes as a lot of people seem to do?
Thanks!
Mark
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We did this in December. We strayed just off the side of the piste, without really knowing we were off the piste at all.
Within 45 minutes two people had been caught in an avalanche in the same place, and one of them died. They were not wearing the right equipment for offpiste skiing, got buried for a long time as a result, and were within about 50 metres of the piste in an area which I would consider extremely low risk having skied it the same day.
I suspect the reason it is statistically dangerous is because it is much more common - lots of people venture a few feet off the side of the piste every day when on a ski trip. Many of those people do not have the equipment for others to help them, do not have the experience to judge when conditions are extremely dangerous but don't appear so to the untrained eye, and are just having a bit of fun. They don't know the risk.
Taking routes between pistes might be ok. Or it might not. How are you going to know?
Best option, if you want to do it, is hire an instructor, borrow the equipment, and get them to show you how to do it properly. That is something we are starting to do, and one of the reasons for it is how potentially dangerous the situation we were in only a few months ago could have been.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shefmarkh, With education you have a much better chance of assessing the risk. Without knowledge you are just hoping for the best.
That said, you look at Powder days when every single inch of inbounds off piste gets skied out in a morning in resorts like Tignes, you have to wonder.
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OK. I'll have the nachos and tomato salsa, please, and a Diet Coke. Easy on the ice. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just backflip out of it, there's a training video on here somewhere...
I'll bite though...
IMHO it's potentially more dangerous to ski piste-side powder because it's accessible, so people who have no idea how to ski decide to have a go but instead of going straight down they cut in long lines from side to side and stop abruptly, setting off avalanches on those below.
Nothing more unnerving than having a group of bladers follow you into the powpow...
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It's proabably ok, it might not be. If you don't know how to tell the difference get some edumacation. Books are good.
The level of feckwittery in average European "just off piste" terrain can be quite entertaining.
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What fatbob said. There's no rule, it's impossible to answer such an open question - it depends entirely on the slope and conditions at the time. Some slopes will be as close to guaranteed safety as you get, others will be much more dangerous. There was a thread recently where an Italian dude was buried in a slide literally a metre off the edge of a piste at the Stubai Glacier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My main concern when skiing is being crashed into or being run over by a piste brasher, also running into a snow cannon, that's why I ski off piste.
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My main concern when skiing off piste is being crashing into or bing run over by a jbob, also running into a jbob, that's why I ski at night.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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shefmarkh, What you need to do is learn a bit about avalanches. Before skiing off the side of a piste survey it properly from the chairlift. How steep? Is it convex and dropping off to the side? Is there signs of wind having blown excess powder off, or blown slabby snow onto? Interesting remark by AndAnotherThing.., re powder accessible from pistes being tracked out so fast. I would add if you see a particular untracked area, you may want to ask yourself why locals and regulars have declined to ski there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| patricksh wrote: |
| re powder accessible from pistes being tracked out so fast. I would add if you see a particular untracked area, you may want to ask yourself why locals and regulars have declined to ski there. |
Yes, discovered to my cost at Chamonix a few years ago, snowboard wrapped round rock and lucky to be able to hobble back down to the lift.
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Thanks for all the advice!
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You know it makes sense.
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1. It is best to assume that everybody else is an suicidal idiot; unless you have good reason to believe that they are not - e.g. they are qualified guide.
2. I guess most slopes immediately above an open piste should be safe, - i.e. if any avalanche would clearly flow onto the piste, otherwise they should shut the piste. This would not apply if there is a big ditch or avalanche barrier, or flattening off before the piste.
Did you listen to my advice in 2? This was a mistake. Read point 1 again. You should have assumed that I am a suicidal idiot. Why would you trust me?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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About 4 hours worth. That day every one got away with it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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AndAnotherThing.., those are big moguls...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Szymon, lol.
In the morning we watched the guys do avi control using a heli with an under slung gazex device. Impressive seeing how far the snow ran from the top of the ridge line.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| prog99 wrote: |
| patricksh wrote: |
| re powder accessible from pistes being tracked out so fast. I would add if you see a particular untracked area, you may want to ask yourself why locals and regulars have declined to ski there. |
Yes, discovered to my cost at Chamonix a few years ago, snowboard wrapped round rock and lucky to be able to hobble back down to the lift. |
That's a risk you assume going off-piste anyway. Mountains are live. So rocks, cracks and other debris do exist from one year to the next.
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It is indeed a risk but in a high traffic area that gets tracked out in minutes I should have known better.
(Especially as a few weeks before I did the same thing at Glenshee...)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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shefmarkh, I have only been hit on piste in Tignes by some East European ar#sholes so I would stay off them if I was you
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Cynic, Same here. The closest I've come to death was being clouted by a GS racer who was warming up on a public piste in Tignes. I was VERY lucky to come off as lightly as I did.
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If you have to ask then you really need to stay between the marker poles. There are a handful of avalanche controlled but unprepared areas in some European areas and these are becoming more popular but your insurance may not like it and they do get tracked out pretty quickly. The carre neige should be OK though.
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| shefmarkh wrote: |
Hi there,
As someone who does not know much at all about avalanche safety I am wondering when I see people going down powder off the piste slopes between pistes - how safe is this? |
At least with respect to avalanches, pretty safe, but no way of being sure without assessing the time and place.
| Quote: |
I ask because I have read articles saying thins like a lot of avalanches are caused within sight of pistes by people who don't know what they are doing. OTOH it seems to me a lot of people routinely leave the piste to ski in powder and if it was really dangerous they would not be...but maybe they know how to tell if it is safe or not? Or maybe they are just unaware what they are doing is dangerous? |
I'd guess the vast majority of people haven't a clue, but have an idea that it can't really be that dangerous. And most of the time they'd be right. Just not all the time.
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Should I basically not venture away from pistes at all, without learning about avalanche risk or is it actually pretty safe to e.g. take routes off-piste between pistes as a lot of people seem to do? |
Loads of people do it, I'd say if not an actual majority of skiers, at least a large minority! Yet statistically very few skiers get caught in avalanches annually. I certainly ski side of piste and between piste all the time, though I have had some learnin'. Imv if you stick close to the pistes you're very likely to be ok, but ymmv and you can always be the unlucky one so the more you learn the safer you'll be. Good luck and happy skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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admin, Nice reminders. I keep telling my eldest son, now 10, that he has a few years to wait before he allowed any further than his head height away from the piste markers but your first example now makes me query that.
Mind you the risk of being hit when stopped by an out of control moron on-piste is probably greater than being 1m off piste and in a slide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Avalanche control is not an accurate science and does not generally have tolerances down to values of a few metres. Probably only tolerances of dozens of metres at best in most situations, so anyone who thinks that there's much difference in control between piste and just off piste should think again. Of course the legalities of responsibility are something else again. Avalanches do regularly but very rarely occur onto piste (and just off piste) but the chance of being that unlucky is very very very small. We've been concentrating on avalanches, but worth rementioning, as some already have, that avalanches are not the only additional risk once you cross outside those piste markers. For instance there are terrain features and surface preparation that can catch the unwary out in a big way once on the other side.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Avalanche control is not an accurate science and does not generally have tolerances down to values of a few metres. Probably only tolerances of dozens of metres at best in most situations, so anyone who thinks that there's much difference in control between piste and just off piste should think again. |
Perhaps not generally but in some circumstances it certainly does make a huge difference: on one side of the ridge U are at risk, on the other U are safe. Some piste boundaries wander over the course of the season, some are very definitely set where they are for a reason.
Anyone who has skied much off-piste knows how the snow can change condition entirely within the space of a single turn. A subtle difference in aspect can produce entirely different conditions within the space of a metre or two.
I can think of many circumstances where being no more than 2 or 3 metres one way or the other would move you from 'on piste' to being at substantial risk - particularly (though not uniquely) on/off the edge of black pistes.
So you're 'playing' just 2m off the edge of a piste and someone else, a little more 'adventurous', triggers a slide above U - U may easily be in the path of the slide while the piste itself is not, hence why the risk wasn't cleared by the pisteurs before the lift was opened.
No, this is not 'the norm' but neither is it highly unusual, so wise to be aware of the possibilities.
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admin,there're always exceptional cases, which is why I used the terms "generally" and "probably". I do though think that as a proportion of the countless miles of piste that exist, these situations are highly unusual. That, together with the miniscule absolute risk of ever being involved in an avalanche means if I had to make a bland statement I'd say side of piste is overall actually pretty safe. In any case, unsurprisingly the casual side-of-piste dabblers naturally stay away from blacks and their verges anyway.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think part of the problem is in how different people, including shefmarkh, interpret the title of this thread "How safe is off-piste by the piste?". At first I thought shefmarkh was asking about skiing within, say, 3m or 4m from the piste. In the first answer Mistress Panda talks about problems 50m from the piste. Then clarky999 mentions someone buried 1m from the piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I wonder if admin means this shot.
That's a big old slide and not too far from the piste. Also the number of tracks running over probably "made it look safe" before it went.
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Poster: A snowHead
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 I can find all sorts of pics of air crashes all over the web but for some reason it just doesn't seem to stop people from flying around like it could be safe to do so.
Scaremongering snapshots notwithstanding, wrt avalanches I don't think it's complicated:
In general, further away from piste = more dangerous.
Danger can exist anywhere but by the piste risk is overall very low indeedy - main risk here is probably from terrain and surface prep.
If nevertheless you want to mitigate, familiarise yourself with the dangers.
Probably seems complicated only if preberfuddled by the don't ski beyond the markers without the kitchen sink 'cos it's actually tres dangerous and should really only be left to hard core gnarly types like me brigade.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
In general, further away from piste = more dangerous. |
I don't think proximity to a piste makes much difference at all tbh. There's plenty of low angle 20º meadow skipping MILES away from a piste with basically zero avi risk. Equally there are many slopes right next to pistes with significant risks. This is where all the stats (chances are 1 in 1000 etc) and ideas of "miniscule absolute risk of ever being involved in an avalanche" fall down - it's impossible to generalise the risks in that way because they change and vary on every single slope on every single day (and during the day).
A well-equiped (transceiver, airbag, similarly equipped and experience friends) was buried here for 12 minutes. Pretty much as close to safety and mountain rescue as possible - if you're going to be buried, it's probably as close to the perfect circumstances for it imaginable. He was unconscious when they dug him out, thankfully he woke up.
(Photo from Freeride Centre Stubai)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| admin wrote: |
Sometimes the risks are surprising though...
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On honeymoon a few weeks ago I sent my avi poodle (flowa) off-piste to test out the snow. Unfortunately, when she traversed across the slope the snow collapsed and she fell into an hole which was about 8ft deep. She was fine and managed to climb out herself but it certainly shook me up a bit!
Obviously, we had no idea that the hole/crack was there. There were no warning markers, visibility was good and it was close to the piste but there were extreme amounts of snow for the resort (ie the most in 30 years or something). We certainly aren't experts but we learned some important lessons from that experience. Given the conditions we certainly didn't have enough local knowledge to be going off the piste.
Personally, I wouldn't ever recommend skiing on your own. If possible ski with someone who is sensible, more experienced than you and knows the area. Of course there are no guarantees but that seems sensible advice to me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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clarky999, so you reckon it is as dangerous 1 cm away from the piste as it is 100m? Or 1m off piste as it is 100m? Or 10m off piste as it is 100m. What accuracy do you think piste patrol can control to? Or as dangerous in most of the easily accessible between run off piste within the boundaries of a mega-resort area as it is on similar slopes you can only get to only by touring miles and miles away from any pistes, pisteurs or punters?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, and actually you can always generalise, just that generalisations don't apply directly to every individual case. The overall chance of being involved in an avalanche is so low in terms of people per season that actually, so long as you don't do anything special (different from the average skier, say not engaging in anything that is not practised by the middle 70% of the herd of skiers), even with no additional knowledge or precautions than that, you'd be unbelievably unlucky to get caught by one.
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It is also true that the more a slope is skied the less the chance of building up tension within the snow pack, by definition those slopes close to the piste are therefore less likely to avalanche than similar ones miles from it.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| clarky999, so you reckon it is as dangerous 1 cm away from the piste as it is 100m? Or 1m off piste as it is 100m? Or 10m off piste as it is 100m. What accuracy do you think piste patrol can control to? Or as dangerous in most of the easily accessible between run off piste within the boundaries of a mega-resort area as it is on similar slopes you can only get to only by touring miles and miles away from any pistes, pisteurs or punters? |
I'm saying there is no such rule, it ENTIRELY depends on which specific slopes in which specific conditions you are referring too. OK, if we're going to extremes, 1cm off the piste you're probably not going to have a problem But as demonstrated, 1m off can put you in a lot of danger. Whereas this is quite a long way from a piste and has effectively no avi risk:
[img]
DSC01726 by Clarkleberry Finn, on Flickr[/img]
With the generalisation thing, again, there are many easy/not extreme slopes that at times can represent a very significant hazard, just as others pretty much never do... Generalising just is not useful in any practical way, as all avi risks are completely situation dependant. A question like this can only be answered with any reliability if someone mentions which specific slope they want to ski.
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T Bar, but what if said regularly skied slope is exposed to un-unsked steeper stuff above? Changes everything.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm pretty surprised by some of answers here. Distance from piste doesn't matter. Local features such as aspect, pattern of wind-loading, inclination, shape of slope, anchors, etc. Not to mention rocks/holes etc just buries by snow. Perhaps some resorts make pistes in such a way that there is a big margin for error next to pistes. But unless you have local knowledge assume this at your peril. The important thing is learn about avalanches, and before going off the side of a piste, survey it as well as possible from a chairlift and avoid any area just off the side but where there is a drop off to the side or evidence of wind loading, bearing in mind that the dangers you see from the chairlift may not be visible to the skier until you are right on them. Better still hire a guide for your first day and get them to show you where you can safely practice.
Some resorts (eg Tignes) are notorious for deadly avalanches just beside the piste due to deadly combination of terrain dropping away and tendency for wind-loading. Remember resorts don't need to make off-piste by the piste safe if the avalanche path is not towards the piste
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| T Bar, but what if said regularly skied slope is exposed to un-unsked steeper stuff above? Changes everything. |
Well it does not mitigate that particular risk but the majority of avalanche victims are due to avalanches precipiateted by skiers.
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FAQ
