 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but...
If what I've understood from here is right, you have to pass the Eurotest to be a ski instructor?
(Stop me if I'm wrong)
And the Eurotest consists of having to post a pretty amazing time on a downhill run?
So basically - they're saying that you need to be able to hurtle down a hill to be a ski instructor (I'm assuming there are other tests involved)
(I am biased as I'm coming from the point of view of someone who'd love to teach but will never be that fast.)
How does speed going down a hill correlate to teaching ability?!
Especially since coming to uni I've learnt that skill and knowledge in the field does not equal any ability to pass that on - and I would say it's especially important for beginners and young people.
Maybe a system akin to trampolining, where Level 1 coaches can only coach up to a certain level of stuff, and then Level 2 can coach a little more, up to Level 4 (I think) would be more appropriate?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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STOP
you are wrong
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BASI have 4 levels of qualification, only one (Level 4/ISTD) requires the Eurotest.
You can teach in the UK without the Eurotest if you have Levels 1,2 or 3 (dry slope or dome with L1). You can teach in many/most countries with a Level 2 or 3. You can teach in France as a trainee (stagiere) if you have a Level 2 or 3 and have passed test technique, a similar rule applies in some parts of Italy too IIRC and might be the case elsewhere.
Essentially it's kinda complicated but you certainly can teach even if you don't have the Eurotest, of course earning potential is lower if you don't have ISTD.
You say you'd like to teach but will never be that fast, many people start off in that position but certainly if you're in your 20s/30s you can train and get that fast - definitely if you're in your 20s, probably in your 30s. The issue with that of course is it takes a lot of time and money to get there and I'd argue that if you're very much older than that (e.g. 40s/50s) the facts are that absolute performance drops and your chances of passing are slim to zero because there is no age handicap. This'll probably lead on to an argument about these issues but take note that those most vociferously defending the current situation will have either passed/been given equivalence without passing/are in their 20s/30s and/or are involved in making money out of training people for the test, older and perhaps wiser heads will tend to keep an uneasy silence on the issue in public but in private will be more candid (as the instructor, an ISTD, who basically wrote the BASI book back in the day was recently with me) ... draw your own conclusions from that 
As for how speed down a hill correlates with teaching ability, hmmm now there's a question I'm still trying to figure out - answers on a postcard please! 
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geeo, 
RibenaRockstar,...........geeo, is correct!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga, well put.
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| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| And the Eurotest consists of having to post a pretty amazing time on a downhill run? |
My understanding is that it's a slalom run rather than just downhill?
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RibenaRockstar, Have a bash at Test Technique whilst you at it.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| RibenaRockstar wrote: |
| And the Eurotest consists of having to post a pretty amazing time on a downhill run? |
My understanding is that it's a slalom run rather than just downhill? |
It's GS.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's all downhill mostly
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RibenaRockstar, Speed downhill is needed when teaching abroad where the average Johnny foreigner has taken lessons all his life and can ski at a very fast high level, so must you.
I joined a French group in a hotel who wanted a days off-piste in a resort we didn’t know, unbeknown to me the group now contained a crack ex French university GS team and a beat up ski instructor, the ESF sent a more wiry looking guy than usual wearing OP skis. We flew about particularly on the pistes between the pitches and he found some great untracked snow, everybody was in bed before 9 that night. The moral of this tale because the ESF guy had Eurotest and Test Technique he knew he could ski better than anybody that turned up; but I am sure I saw him wince when the leader of our group said "Great day we would like you for the week"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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People may dog me off here, but under no circumstances would i take a lesson from anyone who hadn't passed the Euro test.
The reason being, i want to be the best skier i can be. To pass the Euro test your technique cannot show flaws. Thus meaning the instructor thats passed the Euro test has a very good and sound understanding of ski technique, due to the intense training they've been through in their own skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
People may dog me off here, but under no circumstances would i take a lesson from anyone who hadn't passed the Euro test.
The reason being, i want to be the best skier i can be. To pass the Euro test your technique cannot show flaws. Thus meaning the instructor thats passed the Euro test has a very good and sound understanding of ski technique, due to the intense training they've been through in their own skiing. |
Huckacliff duckabranch, shame as you narrow your training options significantly!
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
People may dog me off here, but under no circumstances would i take a lesson from anyone who hadn't passed the Euro test.
The reason being, i want to be the best skier i can be. To pass the Euro test your technique cannot show flaws. Thus meaning the instructor thats passed the Euro test has a very good and sound understanding of ski technique, due to the intense training they've been through in their own skiing. |
And the person who has passed the rest of the ISTD modules but has been a few hundredths out (consistently) on Eurotest (yes it happens and quite often with older candidates) is therefore a poor skier and not worth the time of day?
I am training for L3 (ISIA) and at that level I have paid for training with people who haven't got their Eurotest (including some BASI trainers) but I've never had any paid training with anyone who wasn't an ISTD!
Now think about that and tell me how you make sure the ski instructors you pay for have passed the Eurotest and why they are better than said BASI trainers (the guys who train the ISTDs) because I'd be very interested to know!
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You know it makes sense.
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roga, He only skis with ESF and checks for their golden badge.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Huckacliff duckabranch, I'm struggling to understand how someone who has passed the ET can necessarily advise me on my bumps or powder technique?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cynic, what you on about?
roga, if youre happy to pay for instruction for someone who hasn't passed the Eurotest, fantastic, however ive had lessons in countries where they don't have the Eurotest, guess what? they were not that great on skis.
I've had lessons with instructors in France/Italy, where they have to pass the Eurotest, guess what? they ate up the terrain in all conditions and looked like they were born on skis.
I've also seen instructors in the domes and on plastic, that if i had children i wouldn't be happy letting them teach my kids.
There's a reason why skiers cannot pass the Eurotest. That reason, (correct me if i'm wrong) is because their technique isn't as good as the one's that have passed it.
I'm happy to have my eyes open if my veiw is ignorant. But as i see it i'd rather be taught by someone who has a better technique
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Huckacliff duckabranch, in my view there's a significant problem with your line of reasoning: being good at skiing and being good at teaching others to ski are two very different things. Both necessary, but I would argue that particularly for beginners, having someone who is good at teaching is significantly more important.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Having learnt physics at A-Level from a super clever nuclear physicist who couldn't teach his way out of a paper bag I'm dubious of the need for most people to have a super high-speed low-drag dude teaching them as being super high-speed is no guarantee of them being any good at teaching or explaining the fundamentals that seem so obvious to them. This guy got really wound up if we didn't get something he thought was easy immediately.
If you're at the very top end then I can definitely see you wanting to be taught and coached by a rockstar with good teaching credentials.
I have no idea how this spectrum maps onto what seems like basic protectionism.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Huckacliff duckabranch, if you read back in the thread you'll notice instructors can work in France/Italy without the Euro test so I'll return to my original question which you haven't answered how do you ensure the instructor you get has passed the Eurotest?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 1-12-12 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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oldmancoyote, But thats the same either way round, just because someone has passed their level 1 doesn't mean to say they're good at teaching.
Another example, skiing many years ago in L2A, met a couple of girls, they'd been away on a gap year to Canada. To do a ski instructor course. Here i am all excited to ski with the aforementioned girls. It was embarrassing to be kind to them. Looking at them ski and the thought that they may have to pick up my child or ski behind children makes me shiver, the weight of an unstable adult stumbling down on a kid, need i say any more
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Guys don't get me wrong here, the very best instructors I've ever skied with were all ISTDs and I'm not making any comments about their ability or otherwise to teach but, as most of you have probably realised, many of those ISTDs have not passed the Eurotest - this is the point I rather think Huckacliff duckabranch is missing!
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roga, Ask
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Huckacliff duckabranch, not disagreeing with you re other instructor qualification standards - the Eurotest still doesn't address the basic problem of knowing whether someone is good at teaching, and I'd rather have someone who is good at that, at any level, than someone who has super technique but is unable to teach or coach. I don't know of too many World Cup racers that make good instructors or coaches, but they would pass the EuroTest (or in fact won't even need it to qualify for ISTD status), and the same is valid for most sports: good coaches/instructors aren't necessarily - in fact I would argue are very seldom - the best sportspeople in their field.
Ribena Rockstar, if you feel like wading through nearly 30 pages of debate on the issue, this thread makes for some quite interesting reading. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=50772
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
| roga, Ask |
Okay fair enough and that wasn't so difficult to answer was it!
So in your estimation what makes these guys better than the other ISTDs (including the one's who train the very guys you ask for) who haven't passed the test?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 1-12-12 20:07; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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roga, Just for you,
Before i book a lesson, i ask in the ski school office about what instructors they have, the age of the instrutor and the qualifications the instructor holds. I do this so i can get an instructor that sounds suitable for me. I try if possible to book lessons with a ski instructor that is involved with the local racing club. The idea behind this being, if the locals have chose him to coach the racing club, he must have some good coaching skills.
It's not my estimation that the instructor i chose is better than the one's who haven't passed the test. It's the clock that they race against. Roga am i incorrect on that point? the best technique = the quickest times? what can't speak can't lie.
If you can point me in the direction of a great ski coach who hasn't passed the Eurotest maybe i'll give it ago. In my experience using my tried and tested selection process in a ski area where i don't know anyone orany back ground info, it's served me well.
sorry to have offended you, but its just from personal experience
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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At this moment I would just like to point out my Very reasonably priced Race rental fleet ideal for Eurotest and Test Technique. Discount for BASI members
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gatecrasher, point me in the direction, as i've said, I've only had bad experiences
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You know it makes sense.
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Huckacliff duckabranch, Try Phil Smith Snoworks, he has trained most good instructors I know.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Huckacliff duckabranch, so what level of skiing would you say your process has got you to for the amount of training you have received, positive progress for the time spent on lessons is a reasonable guide to a good instructor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Cynic wrote: |
| Huckacliff duckabranch, Try Phil Smith Snoworks, he has trained most good instructors I know. |
www.snoworks.co.uk
Phil would only need a week or two's coaching from his wife to pass the eurotest 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
| gatecrasher, point me in the direction, as i've said, I've only had bad experiences |
Most UK race clubs aren't a bad place to start, have you tried them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gatecrasher, Yep, used to ski with the Arrows at Swad, Dave Durgan coached back then,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
roga, Just for you,
Before i book a lesson, i ask in the ski school office about what instructors they have, the age of the instrutor and the qualifications the instructor holds. I do this so i can get an instructor that sounds suitable for me. I try if possible to book lessons with a ski instructor that is involved with the local racing club. The idea behind this being, if the locals have chose him to coach the racing club, he must have some good coaching skills.
It's not my estimation that the instructor i chose is better than the one's who haven't passed the test. It's the clock that they race against. Roga am i incorrect on that point? the best technique = the quickest times? what can't speak can't lie.
If you can point me in the direction of a great ski coach who hasn't passed the Eurotest maybe i'll give it ago. In my experience using my tried and tested selection process in a ski area where i don't know anyone orany back ground info, it's served me well.
sorry to have offended you, but its just from personal experience |
Sorry, what left field did that come out of? For the sake of clarity I've just trying to ascertain where you're coming from and just appreciate not having to through through the wringer to get a straight answer! However I've been here long enough not to take offence at pretty much anything so please don't think you've managed to get over that hurdle so quickly 
Anyway, getting back to your comments and it would have made the thread a tad different if you'd actually mentioned this in the first place rather than making blanket assertions. Given you appear to have a preference for race coaching I can absolutely understand your POV and would agree that in your position I'd tend to do the same, however I do think there are some great (often kids) coaches in clubs working with IVSI accreditation and I'll bet (having skied and received coaching with some of them) that you're not above the level of say the best dry slope racers in the UK. IMV you don't have to ski fast to have great technique or understanding of said technique, that's why racers practice moves slow, but yes to be within hundredth of a top 100 skier you have to have good technique but also a hell of a lot of bottle and physically be pretty aggressive and at the top of your game. Once you're a few years past the Eurotest it means little apart from the fact you once skied at that level and there might be plenty of others around who can actually out ski and out teach you!
BTW, I totally agree with you regarding the standard of instructing you see some places and in fact in the UK there are absolutely no standards so you could instruct with no qualifications or, like one dry slope company, make up your own qualifications. Your comments regarding the 2 women you skied with don't surprise me in the slightest either, L1 is not a high standard and only (theoretically) equips people to teach basic snow plough, L2 is significantly better IMHO but things really start going with L3/ISIA which is an internationally recognised qualification and then of course there's L4/ISTD which is top of the tree but not every ISTD has Eurotest and that's rather the point I'm making!
Out of interest where would you say your abilities/skills are in relation to these levels? (I'm presuming you don't have qualifications although now I wouldn't be too surprised if you pull that out of the hat too ) I'm guessing you'd say above L1 given your comments but that's not difficult so maybe L2-L3ish in terms of performance or do you reckon higher than that? If so then only training with ISTDs is sensible I'd say but for most people looking for a more rounded experience I still question the validity of the only with the Eurotest rule because frankly I'd say some of the 'old timers' I've trained with are better all round skiers and teachers than many of the younger one trick pony Eurotest passers but given time I'm sure they'll get better! Just IMHO though but let me say I do it to pass exams and make money (as well as loving it) so I'm certainly not in the business of throwing cash away on sub standard coaching/instruction!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Huckacliff duckabranch wrote: |
| gatecrasher, Yep, used to ski with the Arrows at Swad, Dave Durgan coached back then, |
ROTFL, and the information continues to slooooowly trickle out ...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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oldmancoyote, I have tried reading that but it's full of jargon.
roga, That's interesting, thank you for explaining it succintly - I'd tried to work it out but every thread about it was filled with debate.
And for the record, I'm 18  Hoping to work a ski season or two after I graduate before I get a 'proper job'
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A veteran then, we notice you don't comsider ski instruction a proper job
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga, 
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FAQ
