 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, I'd say it's up to you if you are all consenting adults and happy to carry the financial risk of skiing uninsured.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pertinent at this time of year, if a piste has not been opened can it be closed?
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Boredsurfing, and if it's not a piste...?
pam w, and/or have ski touring insurance?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Boredsurfing, this sounds like a zen like question... don't you mean, how can it be closed it it hasn't been opened?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, Apparently it becomes a piste if it has poles and signs down it, this time of year many pistes are closed and have no poles or signs, so thats off piste then, err, no its a closed piste ....circular argument anyone 
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under a new name, does ski touring insurance not have any of the small print about "local advice"? My off-piste insurance does and going down a closed piste is most definitely acting against local advice.
Arguably going off piste anywhere, even a little way, with a high avalanche warning in force could also be construed as acting against local advice and should be helicopter bill come in particularly expensive, might well be used by an insurance company to avoid paying up.
And regardless of what the small print says, you can be said to have a duty to act reasonably and not take foreseeable risks.
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under a new name, ah, but it was open earlier in the calendar year 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| under a new name, I'd say it's up to you if you are all consenting adults and happy to carry the financial risk of skiing uninsured. |
Insurance really is the red herring here. Who knows what insurance cos will and won't weasel out of. Otherwise it might be fine it might not, if you'd be confident that if you explained your plans to the pisteurs they'd be cool and you're not putting anyone else in danger, why not if you all understand the risks?
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pam w, I'd be agreeing with fatbob, more or less but in this very specific case, we skirted around the top of the closed piste, but were then not on any piste at all. We still slipped past a rope (convenient gap left thanks to the pisteurs).
Boredsurfing, but not the seasonal year...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Piste are not always Ferme for safety reasons, sometimes for snow conservation, piste prep for races etc on the other hand a Large angry Grizzily may have set up a camp half way down!!
So I guess the answer to your questions depends on why the area is roped off and what the potential consequences are off ducking the rope.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Insurance really is the red herring here
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it's a red herring provided you don't care whether you're insured or not. Otherwise it's a pretty relevant aspect of what you do, for most people, which is why there is so much discussion about insurance. Apart from rescue costs, the really big money is third party claims. Often, nobody will be "responsible" in a legal sense for injury or death on or off piste, but given the increasing propensity to sue, being without 3rd party cover would be more than a red herring, for me at any rate.
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We didn't go near the piste that was Fermé (well, not on the first run)
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but later? 
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pam w,
Only to get to another very nice h.p. pitch.
Sorry, I guess I'm, trolling...
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You know it makes sense.
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Bits of Mammoth get roped off when CO2 concentrations get too high in the snowpack. Thanks to the geothermals, large caverns can appear under the snow and you can fall in and suffocate in the gas in a few seconds.
We didn't poach that bit...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As per my report in April...
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=88286
"The reason the run was closed was because the exit out at the bottom was a 20 metre strip of mud with no easy alternative. We side slipped about 10 metres down the side where there was a good strip of snow and it was fine after"
Equally on the same trip a run was left open and was avalanched on. What might say it should have been closed and wasn't.
Sometimes it's clear why a run is closed but other times a lot less so.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| So. Ducking. Ever acceptable or not? |
Apples. Definitely. Piranhas. Never.
Personally, think it's ill-advised to duck a rope unless you have sufficient local knowledge to make a call on why it's likely to be closed.
Closed for race training that's finished or not running? Definitely.
Lack of snow or thinner cover than they'd like? Usually.
Avi risk from the side / above? Sometimes. But only if I can inspect the run from a chair and/or know the run very well and feel confident I can avoid the higher risk area.
Avi risk from the side where the run funnels; avi risk on the slope itself or I just don't know? Not nowadays.
From an insurance point of view I feel certain that if you ski a closed piste then you'll have a much harder time convincing either your insurance company or the insurance ombudsman that you were acting at all responsibly if you have an accident.
For me, it's not analogous to skiing off-piste because the ski area has actively closed it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I remember seeing a very nice looking piste in Lake Louise but being disappointed that it was closed. We took another piste which then curved back round to join it. It then became clear why it was closed as there appeared to be bulldozed piles of snow waiting for the bottom half of it to be pisted. NO doubt the piste basher was somewhere between the two. The run was perfect the next day. I usually err on the side of caution, but I know my son's have taken closed pistes before, although they insist they had followed an ESF group down (Col du Vent and Tabuc in Serre Che).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have certainly skied "ferme" pistes occasionally but usually they were closed for piste bashing or snow making, I would avoid like the plague one I thought had been closed for avalanche work or threat.
On a slightly different point how about the proliferation of signs warning of avalanches that seem to be placed only for ass covering purposes. The ones hard left at the top of the Herse at Grand Montets spring to mind. They are a permanent feature, which are totally ignored. They get supplemented with orange netting on more dangerous days and occasionally by a piste patroller which very few ignore. A similar thing happens at the Tete de Balme. I guess the issue is second guessing the resort security.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
For me, it's not analogous to skiing off-piste because the ski area has actively closed it.
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Exactly. and it doesn't matter how trivial the reason for the closure, skiing on it is clearly flying in the face of local advice, hence uninsured. It might be 100% safe from avalanche but you can still trip over a stone and have a crash (very likely on those pistes - many - closed because of inadequate snow cover). Anyone heading down a closed piste needs to be fully conscious that they are taking that risk on themselves. Rescue could include a chopper if you have a suspected spinal injury, like my son's GF who was flown off an icy and rocky (open, but maybe should have been closed) piste in St Anton.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| We didn't go near the piste that was Fermé (well, not on the first run) as we were sneaking off around a route that only happens to share the same starting point. |
So you weren't on a Fermé piste. No debate to have.
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jbob, Good point - local knowledge is really what matters - GM at the top of Hearse and right from top tickets spring to mind. Equally all the signs in the world don't make any difference to someone who truly doesn't get it e.g. at Kirkwood, US there are numerous signs in the lift maze for one particular lift that have a skull & crossbone and warning that the lift serves advanced terrain only - there is literally no easy way down or even a piste without a very long walk along a ridge. Yet everyday there will be someone bumsliding the headwall or attempting to take their skis off and walk down a high angle mogul field.
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James the Last, but we skipped gaily past a closed sign to get to it...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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<muddying>
What happens if you inadvertantly stray on to a closed piste from an off piste area, not knowing that the on piste is closed?
<muddying>
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Hmm I've skied closed pistes when they have been closed due to bare patches, I've never done so when they have been closed due to avalanche risk
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
<muddying>
What happens if you inadvertantly stray on to a closed piste from an off piste area, not knowing that the on piste is closed?
<muddying> |
Mmmmm....
I've done that with A.N.Other BASI trainer at the Gorm 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In Zermatt we had to get off the mountain to catch a train and found the piste closed. We tried another way but found it didn't link and we ended at the closed run again, REALLY running out of time. I asked an ESF instructor what to do and he said take the closed piste. It was Very, Very heavy snow but OK - no problem for off-piste skiers like our group. On steeper bits off the side of the piste it could have slipped dangerously.
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| under a new name wrote: |
So. Ducking the rope. Ever acceptable or not? |
It is wholly unacceptable to duck the rope.
But it is fun.
If it slides, ski faster.
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You know it makes sense.
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Depends why it's closed.
I've skied a few that were shut due to poor snow cover.
I've skied a couple that were shut due to avi risk but I had my kit and a guide.
I've ducked ropes to get offpiste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mosha Marc, i've skied off piste to duck ropes.
I win.
He he hehe
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Poster: A snowHead
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I skied a black in Are, Sweden, that was closed. It was totally icy but with piste basher tracks that had formed ankle snapping ruts every few feet so you had to make very short turns or be able to jump them. Was interesting but I was not able to fulfill any world cup fantasies 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What if you are with a guide ?
And from last week, what if the piste closed banner is rolled up in a tight ball at the side\start of the piste but there are no piste markers ?
what if you are not skiing the closed piste but the off piste to the side of it ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| In Zermatt ... I asked an ESF instructor what to do and he said ..... |
Surely he was well outside his area of competence?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| mishmash wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| In Zermatt ... I asked an ESF instructor what to do and he said ..... |
Surely he was well outside his area of competence? |
But at least he'd got the Eurotest....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When doing an Avi course 20+ years ago, one of the pisteurs told the group that if it was just a rope, then we where about to enter "Off Piste" and would be skiing at our own risk and must make our own assessments of the risks. However a netting barrier was not to be crossed as the resort (Tignes) would attempt to prosecute someone if an accident occured.
As an aside whilst in Obergurgl I saw a couple of skiers go past a net and ski a track only to be met by a piste basher. When we arrived at the bottom there was quite a commotion as the lift passes were removed from the offenders, seems the driver of the piste basher had radioed back to base.
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I was in a group lesson at the end of the season, the instructor had spotted a section of piste from a chairlift that looked perfect for the exercise they had in mind for us. We got to a junction where the pistes split and the one we wanted was closed. We carried on down the open piste about 100yds then turned and crossed from the open piste to the closed one, we did our exercise in the loose snow they had hunted out for us and then exited the closed piste back onto the open one again.
We were told the piste was closed because the bottom of it hadn't enough cover and that as we hadn't passed the closed signs we had no problems insurance wise.
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| FenlandSkier wrote: |
| We were told the piste was closed because the bottom of it hadn't enough cover and that as we hadn't passed the closed signs we had no problems insurance wise. |
Slightly disingenous - see the case of the kid killed in Vail because he went in a lower open gate and hiked up to an area that had had access restricted to it.
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| Quote: |
We were told the piste was closed because the bottom of it hadn't enough cover and that as we hadn't passed the closed signs we had no problems insurance wise.
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Hmm. I wonder how hard an insurance company faced with a big bill would fight that one?
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