Down or Primaloft? You know, for when it gets REAL cold!

A snowHead

I've already started a thread on layering and people's best combinations. Most people seem to think that a good thermal base, fleece mid-layer, and shell is more than adequate, even in really cold conditions; I'm not convinced.

I believe when temps drop below -15, then something extra is required. I'm thinking a lightweight down or synthetic filled jacket or vest/gilet. More thinking the gilet in order to let my arms (more specifically armpits) breathe.

But which fill suits a skier or boarder best? There is a lot of 'down vs synthetic' info out there on the web, but surprising very little is focused on snow sports.

Let's pretend we are only going to pull out our down/primaloft layer in conditions around and below -15; therefore in theory it's going to be dry. And also assume, that there will be a layer below it - whether that's just a thermal, fleece or whatever; just not directly touching the skin. With these assumptions you could say Down is the best choice. But with the average skier/boarder sweating, would this mean the Down layer would become damp, therefore useless in this application? So, would Primaloft then be the best option for the average active skier/boarder?

In summary - what's the best option for when the temps really drop:

Down or Primaloft?

Jacket or Vest/Gilet?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've got a Rab Primaloft gillet. As suggested, not a problem if it gets damp, but importantly it packs down very tightly into its own pocket. Very comfortable, low bulk and warm, just what I needed.

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I think you will melt to be honest. I'd be more inclined to add an extra mid layer, or even two if you get really cold. A couple of years ago we were in Val Thorens and it was -21. We did see one guy on the hill wearing a down jacket and he looked really really uncomfortable - red faced, soaked in sweat, panting. We were all fine in our normal skiing gear with just an extra mid layer (an extra t shirt in my case).

If you are resolved to get an insulated solution there are pros and cons to down v synthetic. Down will pack down smaller which is important because it will stay in your bag most of the time. You wont sweat enough to soak the down so I don't think that's a big concern.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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i add a primaloft layer (Patagonia Nano Puff) to my fleece if it is quite cold and then a down gilet (Rab Neutrino) if it is really parky. Make of that what you will

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My sister just bought a nice quilted jacket which packs into a little bag, in T K Maxx. The bad news is it's bright orange - only one they had in her size. It has quilted sleeves but is super light and fits OK under the "shop soiled" ski jacket she bought for £17.50 on eBay. she spent more than twice as much on new boots as on all the rest of her stuff put together.

After all it is free

Down - It’s the warmest solution out there for its weight, very compressible, breathes well and it lasts a long time if looked after. Down works best as an outer layer in cold dry conditions. Wearing it under a shell means it’ll get both compressed and damp. Not ideal.

Synthetic – Poorer warmth to weight and compressibility than down and won’t last anywhere near as long. Copes better with moisture in damp environments where it wins out over down.

I own (far too many) items in both and at a push would wear synthetic as a mid layer and either synthetic or down as an outer layer. However, I’d normally wear neither as a mid-layer as an insulated garment of this kind is usually a synthetic layer trapped between two layers of a pertex-like material. This leads to quite a sweaty combo if you’ve got a shell on as well (this is my experience – I’m a sweaty man).

I’ve skied in my big down jacket when it’s been Baltic in Tignes, toured in my 40g primoloft pullover in a drizzley Scotland and tried to look fly in the bars in my light down pull-over. Turns out the solution is to acquire loads of jackets and agonise over which is best for your chosen activity whilst your wife looks on in sympathy and despair as your “outdoor wardrobe” is bigger than her entire wardrobe. Down Jackets are quite puffy though and take up a lot of space………………….

I think galpinos just said everything that needs to be said on this subject Laughing

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I'm not really interested in buying an insulated jacket - it's less versatile and would only be a nightmare to pack along with everything else. Plus I really believe layers are the way to go. Some people seem to think an extra down/synthetic layer would be too much. But such layers are often lighter than a fleece! Not like a big puffy arctic jacket.

I suppose the real question is how much will I sweat when it's that cold? Enough to soak through a base layer, fleece and reach the down/synthetic layer?

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Down is wonderful unless you sweat and if it gets damp/wet all its values disappear. I had a down sleeping bag once that was FANBLOODYTASTIC . . . till the tent got full of condensation from cooking etc. I ended up near losing a couple of toes by the end of week two as the bag seemed to suck up and hold on to moisture Evil or Very Mad

That was the last item of down I've ever owned. but for those of us without our level of 'natural' insulation Embarassed

and who don't ski in a muck sweat, Down will be lovely to ski in.

I use a North Face Primaloft Insulator Jacket under my Shell. Never been cold and it's very easy to wear, very light and very little bulk.

I have a Spyder 700 Down Jacket for Apres use, too bulky to ski in, but great for walking.

You know it makes sense.

I ride in all sorts of temperatures, quite often down below minus 30. The snow gets squeaky below about minus 25 and even with the right wax it gets slower. Most people probably don't ride in those conditions, and if you do then you'll be taking general frostbite precautions anyway. I would not stop outside for lunch in those temperatures.

If you're riding in down, or a synthetic equivalent, then I'd say you're not riding enough - I've plenty of down jackets and stuff, but they're for going to the pub, not for exercising in. So I think all such insulation is too much, for me at least. I'm not particularly warm blooded, but I just add an extra layer for those particularly cold days, and pretty much everyone I know does the same.

If you're carrying rescue kit then having a down jacket in your pack is good. You can wrap someone in it who has to wait for evacuation, for example.

Personally I much prefer down for padded jackets, although other than the feel and compression ratio I don't think there's much functional difference. If you're intending actually getting wet then you'd be wanting a shell to keep your down dry; if you're going to get really wet then I'd use synthetics.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Some great posts here.

Last year I was skiing in Flaine and it was -20 at the top. It killed me! I was wearing plenty of layers and skiing hard as anyone out there! Maybe the fact that I'm pretty fit means I don't heat up so much, I don't know. And I concur that there would be little chance of me skiing in conditions below -25!

But a couple of confessions. My mid layers weren't great: just under armour base layer and synthetic t shirts and pull overs. No fleece or insulated jackets.

And it was the on the lifts that the cold REALLY kicked in. This then became unbearable when I hit speed on the slopes.

Now I have better thermals and ordered a mountain hardwear monkey man fleece.

Still, I felt so cold last year that I believe if it reaches those temps again, i would still require another lightweight insulated layer on top of my new fleece.

I figure I don't know how much I sweat really. Probably about average for a healthy man in his mid-20's.

From what I gather from all your posts, a light, compressible Primaloft insulated layer would be the best option. However as I've invested £100 in my fleece this year, I think I'll risk running with a cheap light-weight down gilet (Karrimor) and see how that goes. If its a massive fail then I'll invest in a primaloft gilet in the post season sales.

Still interested in seeing what other insulated people wear on those really cold days...

A snowHead

RichTraff, what will you be wearing on top of the Monkey Man? Have you got a balaclava (plus a warm hat if you don't wear a helmet), neck thing, really good gloves? Keeping all the extremities warm is important. A neoprene face mask can be good, too. And not taking your gloves off. If the phone rings, ignore it.

A snowHead

RichTraff, Base is Walmart dirt cheap very fine synthetic double knit t'shirt (like two ultra fine pullovers), then a lightweight cycling fleece with windproof panels (the cycling ones have long backs and stay tucked in helping keep my bum warm on lifts. Over that is a cheapish soft shell. Trews are just Decathon £35 quid and mid thigh length wicking pants. That keeps me warm in nearly all conditions including 'freeze the snot in your stuble' January. I do carry a good mid fleece, light hardshell and good dry gloves in my pack . . . just in case of if needed for a downed skier.
I generate a LOT of heat when sliding and it's rare I wear more than lightweight cycling gloves.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

RichTraff, I've spent the past two weeks skiing in Val D'Isere in conditions from -22 to about zero today at the BASE, so obviously colder higher up.

I've generally been wearing a long sleeved thin patagonia type long sleeve top, long sleeve merino on top of that and a thin fleece on top of that, with a thin goretex shell jacket, which has been fine.

We've been doing lots of teaching lessons and standing around, on one occasion I added a down gillet underneath as my hands and toes were very cold, main body was fine. The other time I more the gillet was doing laps of a cold lift and working on fast carving, so wind chill was adding alot to the cold.

Funnily enough -22 yesterday in the sun actually didn't feel that bad, I had added a merino T shirt to the kit list in the 2nd para which helped!!! We've been working on a BASI L2 course, so there is some standing around, and if I was skiing off piste I reckon I'd be too hot with the extra layer....

Cheers,

Greg

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pam w: I plan on wearing just my shell over the monkey man fleece. Its a pretty basic shell, but its got a descent wind proof and water proof rating from what I remember.
I then plan on wearing a lightweight down/synthetic gilet in between the fleece and shell if temps really drop.

kitenski: Thanks for that input. Its good to see what people wear in specific temps and activity levels. A lot of people say they only wear a t shirt and shell but for all I know they could always just be skiing/boarding in April! Did any moisture / sweat make it to your down gilet?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

RichTraff, no the gillet didn't get sweaty, BUT I wasn't doing anything 'warm' ie hiking off piste, bumps etc......

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I really think it depends how cold it is.

I've got a proper down jacket (Mountain Equipment Lightline) which is superb for standing around in or in the village in the evening but way too hot to ski in. I've also got a thin down jacket (Rab Microlight with no hood) which I used as a mid layer in Feb last year when it was -20C and this was great.

I'm a big fan of Primaloft too. I've got a Rab Generator gilet that takes up no room when packed and lives in my rucksack and makes a massive difference if you get chilly. Just recently I saw a bargain priced Montane Prism jacket which will become this years secret weapon. It fits under my hard shell but the hood goes over my helmet so if it gets really cold that is the way to go.

My jacket has no insulation but is waterproof and has a snow skirt. Under this I wear a long sleeved base layer (Helly Hansen Warm which is the lifa/Merino combination if it is really cold, Aldi Merino if it's not too cold and HH Lifa if it is springlike). Usually a Decathlon zip neck 100 weight fleece and whichever extra insulation from the list above I need (might well be none in spring).

I haven't noticed too much condensation appearing with any of these set ups.

Piste skiing is a funny business. You work like crazy for 10 minutes to get a sweat on and then sit 5 metres up in the air in -15C temperatures and a howling gale not moving at all. No wonder it;'s not easy to get it right.

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OH swears by his Buffalo (soon to be replace with the Montane equivalent) for the cold. Pertex with some kind of fibre pile lining. Works on the principle that, as long as you're exercising, it's as warm wet as it is cold. He will wear a "proper" ski jacket as well if it's really cold, but the thing is work next to the skin and wicks amazingly.

Idly considering getting one for myself, but the rustling noise bothers me (be good for the bike though!)

After all it is free

I've skied in my Montane Extreme jacket and salopettes and can confirm they are really toasty. However, they're so bulky that you have to commit to them all day. That's fine if the weather is consistently cold but perhaps not so good if it warms up in the afternoon. Probably not for the fashion conscious either.

Help!!

Down or Primaloft? You know, for when it gets REAL cold!

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