 Poster: A snowHead
|
A month ago slikedges asked about categories of skis.
WTFH offered his excellent back-of-the-envelope grading, but then the thread rapidly moved off-topic and I for one remain confused.
WTFH suggested three parameters to consider: Turn radius, Stiffness, and Length.
We can chose the length, but the other 2 parameters are fixed by the manufacturer. If you visit some of their sites (Atomic, Salomon, Rossignol,) you will find details of geometry (radius), but not any figures on “Stiffness”. Indeed I wonder if there is any standard way of measuring stiffness.
So where does that get us? Nowhere.
I think the various categories are just marketing hype. Does anyone find them useful at all?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
No, not useful. All I want to know is how a ski performs over such and such terrain and then try and square that against what I want to do. I am more likely to wonder how a ski is in bumps which aren't my favourite but, well, they get all over the place so you are going to have to cope with them. I also want it to cope with ice and, again, ice crops up all over. I want it to handle deep snow as I want to go there. I don't care about an out and out powder ski as new fresh powder is quite a rare thing. If I was on a heli week, I would rent fats.
As deep snow and ice are pretty much the opposites in ski capabilities the one that can handle those two extremes are the ones for me. And if the ski is manovurable and capable of short turns, that will do in moguls as well as when you need to get them round on a steep. I don't really care what people call them, I use the term all-mountain because that is where I will take them. And some of the skis desribed as such that I have been on, I would hate to take them all-mountain...!!
At best, these catergories are a mild guide, but after considering the characteristics of the ski I will try them. Never, ever would I buy a ski without skiing on it first in the conditions I will take it. Other peoples references is just that, a reference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
JT,
| Quote: |
At best, these catergories are a mild guide, but after considering the characteristics of the ski I will try them. Never, ever would I buy a ski without skiing on it first in the conditions I will take it. Other peoples references is just that, a reference.
|
I believe that you have the correct approach. Everyone else's view is subjective, coloured by their skill level and experience, which is unique to them. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Jonpim, I find them useful as a guide, but not something set in concrete. So, if I know how to ski certain conditions well, then one ski type would be more appropriate than another. I'm not a slalom racer, so I would tend to be less interested in them than a skiercross variety. I don't ski in the park, so the skis which are aimed there are less likely to appeal to me, but that doesn't mean I'll ignore them - for example the K2 Public Enemy is sometimes marketed as a park ski, but having been on them, I can see they have a lot of possibilities outside the park.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok, but do the various categories actually mean anything?
Foxy already suggests they don’t mean much as he’s found the K2 Public Enemy skis work fine outside the park.
So lets have a look at one of those categories. Take Freeride.
Is there any consistency on what Freeride means?
Natives: “Mainly for off-piste”
ABC of Skiing: “This type of Skis is suited for advanced, expert race skiers”
Ifyouski: “All mountain. . . . Usually 50% on-piste, 50% off-piste”
Mamashealth: “Freeride skis are best for off-piste”.
Confused? You bet. But maybe the shop will help sort things out. So lets try Snow and Rock. What does it say about Freeride? “Off-piste is the main focus”. So why not just call then Off-Piste skis? Well, that would eradicate most potential buyers. The full description of the category is actually quite general:
“The all-terrain ski, perfect for people who want to go everywhere that snow can take them. Off-piste is the main focus; the increased surface area gives greater floatation in deep snow. You can still have a good time on the piste too; side-cuts are deep for stable carving and quick responses when skiing on the piste”
In other words a ski for all conditions and all types of skier. Now look at the description for Foxy’s K2s:
“designed for pipe, park and anywhere else the streets take you”. Yup: another ski for all seasons.
And so it is with all those other categories – what at first seems a specialized ski is actually just as general.
As I said: It's all hype.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jonpim, try it the other way. Ask what each category is no good for.
Let us define 'no good'= highly likely that other skis selected from more than one other category are better.
Also notice that WTFH dodged the 'piste carver' category.
GS: bumps : Freestyle, Skicross, Slalom
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Isn't this just normal 'sales' technique? Make all the categories confusing, then make all skis in all categories suitable for everyone ? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ski, yup.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
However, I feel they've slid back onto the groomed a little and have settled as skis for piste skiers who dabble in the rough (freeride)
|
Hmm, not sure about that. My Stockli Stormrider XLs are clearly Freeride skis (not big enough for Big Mountain but designed for off-piste). They ARE pretty amazing on-piste given their stiffness and race construction but to say they are aimed at people who only dabble off-piste. Don't make me laugh.
Jed
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Jonpim,
I am with you and get completely confused by the way skis change each year and what categories they are good for. When they add in the marketing hype as to what type of skier they are for I get even more confused. Personally I ended up buying a ski I knew nothing about last year because it was cheap and the man in the shop said it was good for what I wanted.
My old ski (X Screams) had their edge knocked out beyond repair I went into the shop and asked for a ski that would suit an average skier in heavyish off piste (Because these are the conditions I find most difficult as opposed to ski most frequently ) and was sold a ski whose name I am not even sure about. They are metallic all over with no name. Hopefully they will suit but a realistic guide to skis without marketing jargon would be a boon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jedster, do you think most people who buy skis in the freeride category spend most of their time off-piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| jedster, do you think most people who buy skis in the freeride category spend most of their time off-piste? |
Without criticizing anybody I don't think it is any worse if you look at other sectors with lots of "toys". You have the enthusiasts - the people skiing lots of days who will generally buy the right tool for the job (whatever the shop label). They are the kind of people the manufacturers might consult to see how their products are being used. It is the same with say cameras: do you think people who buy a semi-pro digital SLR know from Dixons are really semi-pros or just people who hope it will enable them to take snapshots like a pro without having to faff about with light meters and whatnot?
Of course that doesn't mean that the label is wrong just that for many people it is an aspiration rather than current reality.
The lesson in all this? Probably better to rent skis if you are only doing a couple of weeks a year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
davidof, I agree with what you say, but manufacturers want to flatter their public, so that in an effort to bring it to the masses, inevitably the hardcore element gets watered down, and they become a jack of all trades. Not to say that there aren't any skis at all in the categories which still attempt to be true to their original purpose. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
So what category of ski should one buy if you ski on piste but occaisionaly dabble off the edges (I think people will be aware of this type of skier)....... not that I am confused 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Frosty the Snowman, I'd consider them in this order:
Mainly on piste:
1. Slalom ski
2. Skier cross ski
3. GS ski
4. Freestyle ski
5. All mountain ski
6. Freeride ski
7. Big mountain ski
Now, the reasons for 1/2/3 is more to do with the length that they are generally skiied in, so a GS ski tends to have a larger surface area/be longer than the other two above it, so would be better than them off piste. But, it's a close call, because the Skier cross ski may have a softer flex, and may be wider than the GS, so it might beat the GS in the light stuff.
But, if you're wanting one ski for the odd foray into pow, then consider a freestyle or all mountain ski. They may not be the fastest on the mountain, but they are generally the most versatile.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| do you think most people who buy skis in the freeride category spend most of their time off-piste? |
My interest is in skiing off piste, but I do ski on-piste. So what I want is a ski that behaves nicely off-piste and is sensibly skiiable on-piste. Note that off-piste includes all sorts of snow conditions including snow that is as hard packed as on an icy groomed piste. I am happy to sacrifice on-piste performance for a ski that works off-piste. My skis are Saloman X-Mountains with downhill bindings and X-Mountain-Tour with Fritchie touring bindings. Both skis are reasonable wide underfoot to give flotation in soft snow. Both are good enough on piste that I can ski any piste. It is sad that X-Mountains are not being made any more.
Back to your question. I imagine that anyone who can ski a "freeride category" ski off-piste with some confidence and skill will be able to use that skill to ski them on piste with style.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Adrian, is it my question that you quoted that you are referring to or another question entirely
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Adrian, I've got X-Mountain Tours too ! You may find some of the newer fatties (Legend, B3 etc), are as good as the X_Mountain offpiste, and better on .
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| Adrian, is it my question that you quoted that you are referring to or another question entirely |
I was using your question as a starting point for my thoughts. My shortest answer to your question is "no", but I did not think that that was a useful answer. So I tried to expand upon it.
Let me try and answer again, but with different words. Some skiers are very keen on off-piste and so want skis that are good in the many varieties of off-piste. These skiers enjoy skiing on-piste and also need to ski on-piste to get to and from the off-piste. So they want a predomimantly off-piste ski but they have the skills needed to ski effectively on-piste with an off-piste ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My current ski have plenty of life left in them so, ski, I am hoping not to need to buy new skis for a year or three. Last season there were some skis being sold that other people I ski with said were as good as, or better than, the X-Mountains. Do not remember their name.
The X-Mountain and the X-Mountain-Tours are very different skis. The Tours with Fritchies are fairly light and so easier on the sholders when walking climbing to get to the nice snow. Some of the Atomic touring skis are even lighter and will be candidates for my future touring skis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting stuff guys. Davidof considers how we select a camera
| and wrote: |
| I don't think it is any worse if you look at other sectors with lots of "toys" |
Well, at least with a camera there is some useful objective information and guides of what that information means.
With skis you get objective information on length, width and sidecut. And thats it. If stiffness is mentioned at all there are no figures, so I am unsure how this is measured. And then who decides which category a particular ski goes into?
In reply to Frosty’s request for assistance in choosing “if you ski on piste but occasionally dabble off the edges” WTFH replies with a list that starts with Slalom Ski – does Frosy want to do Slalom? I don’t think so. And so the list goes on: completely useless (not your excellent list Foxy – just the stupid names for the various so-called categories).
The majority of skiers are (presumably) bought by recreational skiers, but they are categorized for “professionals” – the descriptive terms used are useless for the ordinary snowhead. The majority of cameras are (presumably) bought by ordinary “snappers” like me. On Comet thay are listed by price with information on what they can do – not suggestions of what sort of pictures I might be taking with them, such as Paparazzi, Sport Action, Glamour, Voyeur, and so on.
And how are we going to change this crazy state of affairs? Well, we could get the reviewers to stop going alongwith this farce and start using meaningful terms. I have started by requesting Arnie Wilson (Ski and Board editor) to stop using the manufacturers terms and start using words that are useful. Watch this space.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Jonpim, I guess what it comes down to is if someone is looking for one ski, then you select one from around the middle of the lists -
Turn radius (tightest first)
3. GS ski
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
Stiffness (stiffest first)
3. Slalom
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
Length (shortest first)
3. All mountain ski
4. Freeride ski
5. Freestyle ski
Mainly on piste:
3. GS ski
4. Freestyle ski
5. All mountain ski
And now you see why "all mountain" and "freeride" skis are popular - they may not be the best at anything, but they are capable of most things.
(OK, I'm now questioning my own results - have I got freeride and freestyle mixed up somewhere along the lines? D'oh!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, you're doing just fine. We have regular Wednesday morning Teaching meetings at 0800 - I wonder if you could come along in the next week or so and present your celebrated talk on Ski Category Confusion Cracked At Last?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| have I got freeride and freestyle mixed up somewhere along the lines? D'oh!) |
possibly on the length, the longest freeride skis are way longer than a freestyle ski I'd think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Jonpim, I guess what it comes down to is if someone is looking for one ski, then you select one from around the middle of the lists -
Turn radius (tightest first)
3. GS ski
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
Stiffness (stiffest first)
3. Slalom
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
Length (shortest first)
3. All mountain ski
4. Freeride ski
5. Freestyle ski
Mainly on piste:
3. GS ski
4. Freestyle ski
5. All mountain ski
And now you see why "all mountain" and "freeride" skis are popular - they may not be the best at anything, but they are capable of most things.
(OK, I'm now questioning my own results - have I got freeride and freestyle mixed up somewhere along the lines?
D'oh!) |
This seems generally to make sense, however careful with freeride skis. This year some of the larger models are wide downhill boards, it would take six of us, with a ten metre run up to get a slight camber. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Happy to try again, though.
