Currently Ill do a bit of off piste between runs, but was wondering how far away from runs/ lifts does having off piste safety equipment etc ( and obviously the knowledge of how to use them) become necessary.
Do you need the off piste equipment if you were just going between pistes via an off piste tree lined route ?
Is it just areas that dont get avalanche blasted or are outside the marked piste/ mountain boundaries ?
I just dont have a clue
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'd say, as soon as you leave the piste, it's worth getting at least the basic : transceiver, shovel and probe.
While it's not guaranteed to be the case for every piste, but if the area was 'guaranteed' to be safe then it would probably be a piste already, especially if it's an obvious link between two areas or runs.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Potentially as soon as you are off the groomed, though the danger factor will vary for each route.
If you can't work that out (sorry, don't mean that to sound as rude as it does!) you should invest in some avi education (avoidance, not relating to kit) as well as the kit. In Europe, there isn't really such a thing as 'mountain boundaries' (unlike the US where 'inbounds' should always be safe). You're either on piste (or a marked, mapped, avi protected ski route) or you're off.
clarky999, it doesn't sound rude at all. Just I have no idea where to begin really, so just wanted, as a starting point people thoughts.
Based on the info detailed above it eye opening the amount of skiers and boarders you see going off piste from one run to another that don't have any safety equipment.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
snow_badger wrote:
clarky999, it doesn't sound rude at all. Just I have no idea where to begin really, so just wanted, as a starting point people thoughts.
Based on the info detailed above it eye opening the amount of skiers and boarders you see going off piste from one run to another that don't have any safety equipment.
In many cases, it's probably safe enough, but there's always a risk to be managed
In many cases, it's probably safe enough, but there's always a risk to be managed
^ This.
I think the most important bit of kit you can take with you is a sizable dollop of common sense. Know whats above you, know whats below you and don't go alone.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
snow_badger, strictly speaking the avy risk is non-zero even on piste, but it's so vanishingly small that there's no reason to worry about it.
Once you go offpiste, there are areas where the risk is pretty much just as vanishingly small, and areas where it will be higher but still very small (let's say, with absolutely no data to back this up, smaller than crossing the street in a busy area, even on a marked crossing).
The problem is that without some knowledge it becomes quickly very difficult to tell these areas apart from those where the risk becomes suddenly quite a bit higher, or seriously high. That's because you start having a lot of less obvious factors such as terrain above, terrain underneath the snow, temperature and snow layers, misestimation of slope degree, etc etc. So most of those who have some training strongly recommend the basic trio of safety equipment for all offpiste, even the simple "one piste to another" - and it's especially useful for beginners to offpiste.
To give you an idea, I will not let my son ski without a transceiver if there's any chance of him leaving a piste, even if he goes with ski school on known low-risk offpiste areas.
(That said, I've done my share of stupid offpiste skiing when I was younger, and more recently on a day when I forgot my transceiver...and of course that was the day I took a big tumble on a 35 degree face).
After all it is free
After all it is free
based on the info, does anyone know of any good web resources/ courses that could be good for avi awareness
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Wot feef and Mr Sideways say.
There's a balance to be had. It's easy to get caught up in the horror stories. Recently, the term "off piste" seems to have attracted this mythical hero status to the point whereby ten feet off a flat marked piste in a resort is being regarded as some sort of extreme danger zone - I exaggerate slightly but you get my drift. It's 'elf and safety gone mad, Guv.
You don't need to load up on all the (expensive) safety gear to nosey around such places and a bit of exploring is a great way to gain deep snow skiing skills, confidence and experience.
On the other hand, I've just posted under "A Sad and Cautionary Tale" as to what can happen when that little bit of off piste exploring turns into something a whole lot more serious.
Use your brain, don't get carried away by powder fever or macho mates. spot your exit route if possible and always, always have a Plan B.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Remember, "Off-Piste Safety Equipment" only come into play when someone has made a mistake and got avalanched.
Your first port of call should be leaning about snow, terrain and how avalanches are caused/triggered.
When you do get a transeiver, shovel and probe, learn and practice how to use them. An avalanche is a pretty stresful situation so you need it to be as second nature a possible.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snow_badger wrote:
Do you need the off piste equipment if you were just going between pistes via an off piste tree lined route ?
Tree lined routes, if you watch this video at around 40 seconds you see my son take a little path through trees. All the kids do this little run. I doubt any of them or their parents ever think about it. It crosses an avalanche couloir fed by a large snowfield some 500 meters higher up. If you stop at 45s you can see the break in the trees where the slides come down.
Now the problem is, if you were hit by a slide on this couloir none of your avalanche gear would be likely to save you, not a beacon, not an airbag.
Tree wells are another issue. Not so big in France with a lot of above the tree-line skiing but there have been deaths where the edge of the well collapses and you go head first to be buried in a few cubic meters of snow. Again an airbag may not do much for you but a beacon could be handy, at least for body recovery!
Just off piste. It all depends. Could be completely safe and benign, say crossing between the big blues at alpe d'Huez (although someone fell through a snow bridge into a stream there and nearly died last season). Could be very dangerous, especially high above the tree line in Tignes as this poor guy found to his cost
Also a book called Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain written by Bruce Tremper is about the best I've seen out of the several books I've bought on the subject.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
meh, thank you very much for the web link.. great starting point for me
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
All safety equipment guarantees (and knowing how to use it) is that they will find a body, avy awareness and knowledge to prevent getting caught in one in the first place is essential. Off the sides of pistes and things or popular easily accessible area if there is any significant danger most larger resorts will post warnings but there is no guarantee.
A large number of people in avalanches die anyway (from trauma, or are just not found quickly enough) and a large number (like me) survive anyway (they are visible on the surface) but a significant proportion are saved by carrying safety equipment, or save others because of carrying, and practicing with, safety equipment. Very worth doing.
And as has been said, getting to understand where and when is safer and less safe. Something I want to know when I arrive somewhere is where has the wind been blowing from. (Wind plaque is the biggest cause of fatal avalanches)
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 6-11-12 14:54; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
Recently, the term "off piste" seems to have attracted this mythical hero status to the point whereby ten feet off a flat marked piste in a resort is being regarded as some sort of extreme danger zone - I exaggerate slightly but you get my drift. It's 'elf and safety gone mad, Guv.
I agree about the hero status thing, but the point is 10 feet off a marked piste CAN be a high danger zone. Not everywhere, and not all the time, and there are also places miles from any lift or piste that are about as safe as can be - the challenge is being able to tell which is which.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
People often ask me "Where does off-piste start?" and my reply is simple "The second you are off the groomed run you are off-piste". That is the only safe definition I can think of. Because otherwise some people don't know where to draw the line. By making a very simple distinction it is clear when you need your safety gear.
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Poster: A snowHead
