 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi Guys
I am new to this forum and looking for some advice. I'm am looking to take 35 - 40 pupils to the USA for a ski holiday Feb 2014. Last trip wen't to Austria with a company called ski plan. Nightmare from start to finish. Anyone had experience of taking goups to USA. Traveling from Scotland. Thinking Winter Park, Colorado. I've also heard that altitude sickness can be a problem. Would consider alternative resorts if anyone has recommendations. Kids are all intermediate to advanced skiiers and boarders.
Any advice gratefully accepted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
My son's school had planned a trip to Killington in 2011, at the last minute they managed to change to Sunday River, because of an unusually warm week toward the end of the season that wiped out the snow in Killington. Big congrats to the teachers for pursuing this. Tour op was Ski Bound (www.skibound.co.uk)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Welcome to snowHeads jowski, 
Why take them to USA? Is it because the families are a bit minted or because they'll only eat McDonalds?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
jowski, welcome to Snowheads. Are you a teacher? Can't you get the resorts you are considering to lay on a free recce? My teacher son-in-law had at least one exploratory trip to the US though the last trip he did was to Folgarida, and was a great success. Seems completely unnecessary to go as far as the US. Have you considered Cairngorm? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| jowski, Seems completely unnecessary to go as far as the US. Have you considered Cairngorm? |
A ski is hardly necessary to complete a child's education, whether to the US or elsewhere. Does it really matter to people not involved with the school where it goes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
jowski, what was such a nightmare, the trip itself or the company? If it was the company, then what makes you think dragging your group across the Atlantic will make it any better?
I used to organise school ski trips and continued to run them after I had retired from the school because they were so successful. We often looked at taking at least one of the groups we organised over to the USA but in the end rejected it every time simply on the VFM basis when we added everything up. Usually skiing was only for 5 days not six or even 8 that we sometimes got out of travelling by coach. Talking to experienced party leaders who had done it, they all said the same thing, an interesting experience, but never again with a group.
The most important decision you as a ski party organiser makes is the selection of the right company to offer what you want. Blaming the tour operator is an easy choice, could it be that you simply chose the wrong group for whatever reason? That is not a criticism of you per se, just based on the post mortems that we carried out after trips which we felt were less than successful. The children were included in these PMs by the way as they had a totally different view of the trips to us as leaders. After a while we knew well in advance what it was they wanted, what price their parents were prepared to pay and we took our shopping list of essentials to the TOs. If they wanted our business, they met our requirements or managed to convince us to try something else which they felt would meet our needs. We often sold out a trip within a couple of days of publicising it as a result of this recipe, even the trips we took that were over Christmas!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would agree with others on here, make sure you know exactly what you and your group want from the trip. There is plenty of challenging, school group friendly skiing in Europe.
Positives of staying in europe are cost, no jet lag, shorter travel times overall, possibly more skiing time, students get to experience very different culture/language/food. Negatives might be busier slopes (in some resorts), kids not liking the food.
Also, Ive seen it on a trip where a child needed to stay in hospital for a prolonged period, and being only a 2hr flight away from home, meant it was fairly quick to get a parent out to be with him.
Also think carefully about which company you use, and what hotel/resort you select. Skiplan are at the more basic end of the school trip selection, hotels are likely to be two star, food will probably be hearty but uninspiring, ski hire kit will be functional rather than flash. Research the choice of hotels, do you want lots of space for the kids (games rooms, etc), good piste side location, lots of evening entertainments? Not knowing what your issues were with your last trip, I cannot really comment further.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My school did go on a rugby trip to the USA, but we always skied in Europe. I'm pretty sure that we always flew from Heathrow/Gatwick. I don't remember any coach trips.
I really can't see any sense in taking a large group of school kids to the USA/Canada. As carettam says, there are far too many things that make Europe so much more attractive before you start thinking about things that might go wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Does it really matter to people not involved with the school where it goes?
|
Does it matter to anyone not involved where people go for their holidays? Probably not, but if they ask for comments and suggestions......
My son in law did do a "recce" to the USA but realistically they were never going to take a group there. Though his school did do a New York trip at the time of Sandy - it went OK, though, and their travel wasn't disrupted. They were fortunate.
Different schools clearly have different policies - the schools he's done trips with have all given priority to kids who haven't skied before, who wouldn't otherwise have the chance, so challenging territory wasn't a consideration. But even when it is, there's plenty in Europe. When I looked personally at ski trips to N America it never seemed worthwhile for less than 10 days.
My boys did one school trip - to Europe, I think it was Valmorel. That was quite expensive enough; I'd not have been prepared to pay for a more expensive trip, but I suppose if it's a school where parents are loaded.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w,
I seriously doubt it would ever be worth going on a skiing trip to north America for less that 10 days. School kids or otherwise.
I've only been twice (for 10 days), but would have liked to have gone for 14 both times. Even as someone who has worked shifts, the time difference really hit me. I can't sleep on a plane.
I would have thought that most kids would only have a couple of weeks skiing behind them if they are going on a school trip (unless you go to Eaton of course), so your average low level cheap Euro trip should be fine for most if not all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
jowski why are you taking a group of kids to the USA?
What is the point of that? Are you saying that Europe, being much closer, cheaper, simpler, etc, etc isn't an option and you just have to go the US?
I think we have been here before, but please remember why you are doing this; it is for the kid’s sake, not just that the teacher fancy the US.
I "know" that school group can run trips to Europe fully inc (flights, transfer, meals, 3* hotel, evening ents, equipment, 4 hours a day lessons) for less than £700 per child, and even less if by bus. How much will it end up costing the kids after the school adds the "admin" cost, teachers freebees, etc, is another point.
Can you do this to the US?
If not why are you doing it. Surely the idea is to make this sort of thing available to as many people as possible and some of the parents will be on a tight budget and so their kids will be precluded, just as the teachers fancy a trip over the pond.
Not really fair is it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
One reason for going to the US is so that teachers don't have to worry about stopping the kids drinking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
At easter, I am going to Sunday River with 60 students. My only concern will be the snow as we are going on march 23rd, although it is the only time we could feasibly go or else we would all be knackered! We are going for a week and skiing 5 days. The trip had a waiting list of 15 students, the only reason we couldn't take more was accommodation, flight and bus availability. We have skied in Italy for the past two years and never had that much interest.
Price was not too much of an issue. Yes it is expensive but it is only costing £100 more than our half term trip to passo tonale.
A massive positive is the fact that students can't drink! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
setha3 those prices seem quite strange, being that a passo lift pass is around £100 cheaper than Sunday River.
You are either not getting the same facilities in the US than you did in Passo or you paid too much to go to Passo, consequentially making the US trip appear to be a comparatively better value deal than it really is. This says to me (sadly, yet again) that teachers should not be left to run these trips.
If you are worried about the snow at the end of March have you not considered tignes or somewhere like it in France. Sorry to say this but if you cannot get France for less than the USA then you haven't done your homework.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Wayne wrote: |
| jowski Surely the idea is to make this sort of thing available to as many people as possible and some of the parents will be on a tight budget and so their kids will be precluded |
Not necessarily so !!. I remember when my kids were at school they come home with a letter for a trip to Lake Louise of all places. This was about 10 years ago and the price was around £1200 then, needless to say they did not go.
However and there is no PC way to put this so I shall just say it as it is, for every 10 full paying pupils there would be a subsidised place costing around £300 to a pupil from let's shall we say a less fortunate background and there was some kind of selection criteria that I cannot remember.
So my 2 kids did not fall into the category of having parents who were willing to pay that kind of money for a school trip, neither did they fall into the category of eligibility for the subsidised place. However they did not miss out because by all accounts from the few kids who went who were regular skiers the lesson structure was biased towards the beginners.
The same time the school ski trip was on, my 2 kids had a week in Les arcs and in total it cost just a little bit more than the school trip would have cost, however there was a very big difference they stopped in a decent 3*, not a dorm and their mum & dad got to come along as well  .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Wayne, just to clarify a few things about the organisation of a school ski trip.
1. A teacher is in charge of the trip. We leave the organistaion/running to our chosen company and travel representative.
2. We gather quotes from a number of different companies - for info there is never much difference between them all.
3. Of course the quality of snow is important -but it is not the be all and end all on a school trip.
4. A school trip is NOT like booking your own budget ski holiday.
As a school we are limited as to dates we can go. Unlike many people were limited to school holidays. We went to passo in February half term which im sure you know is one of the most expensive/busy weeks of the season in Europe - even when booking a school ski trip. When we book our trips we also always add on additional money to the company quote for activities in the evening, emergencies etc. We break up earlier than most for easter so therefore have made a saving by going to America and not booking a peak week. Additionally, the exchange rate is better than europe so pre booked extras are costing less that perhaps they would in europe.
I love to ski in Europe, France, especially the Espace Killy . I have skied in Tignes/Val 4 times in April so know the snow is great til 2pm! BUT one thing teenagers love to do is get up to mischief and as a teacher i really dont want to be patrolling the hotel to ensure people are not drinking or sneaking out to Dicks tea bar. America solves this problem.
Your right, the teacher in charge wants to go to America but so do the students. He has been running the ski trip for ten years and has always taken the students to europe. He wanted to do something different. Many of the students we are taking are experienced skiers - we have only one beginner group this year. Going to America is somewhere different for them - and importantly was something they asked for!
Obviously we have had to compromise a little to keep the cost of the trip reasonable. For example we are not staying in a recently renovated hotel, like we did in passo, however we are staying pretty much next to the piste. We are only skiing for 5 days not 6 - but as most teachers know - the students are exhausted by the end of the week. Our students are looking forward to the trip and no doubt we will be back to europe next year. But again somewhere different, perhaps Austria!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| musher wrote: |
I really can't see any sense in taking a large group of school kids to the USA/Canada. . |
Alcohol much harder to get their mitts on, weed on the other hand...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
Firstly this is the third trip I have organised for the school ski group. We organise lessons through our local Xscape for pupils twice a year. In 2009 we took the kids to Passo Tonale and everyone had a great time. Excellent staff, hotel and no complaints. The company we used stopped opperating. We did shop around and always look for value for money. Our school kids save for two years affording all children the opportunity to go regardless of parental income. The trip to Austria was badly organised by the company who changed arrangements at the last minute; this resulted in our group having less than 1 hour to change flights at Heathrow, with bags arriving a day late. So no skiing day 1. Instructors from Austrian ski school were fantastic, however the rep ski plan appointed had never been to saalbach. We had been promised a rep who could take our advanced skiers round the resort and speak the language (you guessed it, he coundn't speak the language). In resort transport was promised however when we arrived we found out the transport promised was actually belonging to other groups who had travelled by coach, therefore we had to wait until other groups where finished before we could access transport. In the whole the pupils still had a great time. However as the adult responsible I would say things did not go so well.
In the school a football trip also runs every two years. Both trips had been running in the same years. It was agreed that we would wait three years befor organising our next trip so as not to conflict with the football trip. As this allowed a three year saving period we offered parents the option of going to America after some of the pupils had asked if it was a poosability. For some children this could be the only opportunity to go state side in their lives. If I do not feel the kids are getting value for money we will simply offer an alternative to Europe. I appreciate the helpful coments on this thread. Anyone who thinks that taking school kids away for a week is a holiday obviously has never experienced being on call for 24 hours a day 7 days a week looking after 40 kids. We also have to work to very strict health and safety regulations working with children.
It is a massive repsonsability. The reward is seeing the pleasure and enjoyment the kids have. Many parents go without to give their kids a special experience. It is my responsability to ensure they have a great experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Hmm your last trip doesn't sound perfect.
As to flights, was it the company or airline that changed your flight details? At peak times, airlines often make last minute changes and those who get bumped are often the school groups rather than their frequent fliers. Still a bad experience, especially about the bags. But again, these things do happen, whichever company you use. BA have lost by bags more often than ryanair! You still got 5 days skiing which is all you are going to get in the USA.
Secondly, I find it hard to believe you were promised a rep who would ski with your advanced skiers. If this is true, then the head office person has been very naughty. Ski reps are not insured in any way to lead groups of kids, and neither are teachers actually, unless you are a fully qualified mountain leader and have cleared it with your LEA.
It is quite common for reps to have not been to a particular resort, they are usually chosen for their skill set rather than the list of places they have been. That's not to say all reps are great, far from it, but as long as they are able to quickly find out any information you needed, I don't see the issue.
I am not against taking kids to the USA, but just found your initial points a little vague. If it has been requested by the kids and parents are happy to pay a little bit more for fewer days skiing but a chance for their kids to visit the states, then go for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Tough crowd eh jowski?
I'd like to say at this juncture, quite aside from any opinions about the pros and cons of the USA for a school group, good on you for making the effort and confronting the issues to run the school trip at all. So many now find the admin too much of a headache to bother.
If it wasn't for our brusk Cornish PE teacher at 6th form doing the same, I probably would never have skied and snowHeads wouldn't be here.
The recession has brought on a certain amount of introspection within the UK ski industry, asking questions about 'the future'.
One thing seems plain to me though: without school trips, I don't think the industry would have much of a present, let alone a future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
admin, well said!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
admin, nope we'll have to disagree on this one. The UK ski industry doesn't rely on school trips. A small number of operators do (as do a few teachers ). But the industry as a whole?, nope.
The whole scam that is the "School Ski Trip" business, should be looked into.
If the idea is (as Admin infers) to introduce children to the wonderful world of snowsports, why are they continually scammed into paying way over the odds for what is in effect a low level, reduced facility holiday with their mates. Surly the correct method of introducing anything to anyone is to provide a a good quality experience “at the correct price” so they will feel, in later life, that it is something that is available to them.
I imagine, at the moment that what is actually happening is that children (and their parents), with no experience of skiing, are left with a memory of an over-priced, disorganised trip, run by amateurish (however well meaning) teachers.
jowski that's just self-justification and an attempt to defend a decision already made.
Hey kids where do you want to go?
Bulgaria?, France?, Austria?, USA?
What a loaded question to ask a bunch of kids.
Next time I sort out a kids birthday party I'll do the same.
Hey kids do you want Broccoli?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?, Jelly?
| jowski wrote: |
| If I do not feel the kids are getting value for money we will simply offer an alternative to Europe. |
See here (pinched off the web  )
Research shows that people are often rationalizing creatures as well, quite facile in their ability to justify their own actions, beliefs, and feelings after the fact. This phenomenon, known as self-justification, involves convincing oneself (and others) that what one did, felt, or thought was logically appropriate, even going so far as to invent plausible explanations when it is not immediately apparent why one acted, felt, or thought as one did.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Wayne wrote: |
| Research shows that people are often rationalizing creatures as well, quite facile in their ability to justify their own actions, beliefs, and feelings after the fact. This phenomenon, known as self-justification, involves convincing oneself (and others) that what one did, felt, or thought was logically appropriate, even going so far as to invent plausible explanations when it is not immediately apparent why one acted, felt, or thought as one did. |
Such as a tour operator running trips to Europe telling people off for wanting to go to the US?
Come on Wayne, I think the OP was very open and came back with a perfectly reasonable explanation. How is it a loaded question to ask the kids where they want to go?
| Wayne wrote: |
Next time I sort out a kids birthday party I'll do the same.
Hey kids do you want Broccoli?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?, Jelly? |
Well then next time you sort out a kids' birthday party, don't ask them, pick the broccoli and cabbage, and let us know how the party went.
I love skiing in Europe and I do believe that it may be better value and a better experience for the kids but they may want the US as a different experience, and there may be other reasons to pick the US. Not much point in turning this thread into "let's bash the school ski trip industry".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi jowski, I will declare a sort of interest. Until 2 years ago I worked as a part time rep for a company that specialises in school trips including ski trips. It is a well known company and the level of thought and training I found to be impressively high. They do trips to Europe and to USA / Canada. They are almost certainly not the cheapest but having seen the amount of effort that is put into the trips, I do think that they are value for money.
Why am I saying this?
I think that rather than choose a resort, it is preferable to choose a Tour Operator first. See what is included. See what the back-up is like. Then see what resorts they offer.
From personal experience, you will have some 'incident' or 'accident' during the trip. It might be illness or injury or lost property. Will there be a rep with the party? Will they speak the local language? (USA / Canada has an advantage here)
One one trip I had to deal with a child who was rushed into hospital with appendicitis. He couldn't come home at the end of the trip and separate arrangements were made for a parent to stay with him and come home later. On that same trip, an adult suffered a leg injury and would have been unable to fly home on a scheduled flight (a consideration if you are across the Atlantic)
You will choose what you believe to be best, taking everything into account. Keep doing it. Introduce more young people to snowsports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Wayne, When my daughter went skiing in the US (three times in all) i had no expectations that she would have an excellent skiing holiday. What I did expect was that she would have a good time with her mates away from us, her parents and as a result would make her more independent and worldly wise for the future. As setha3 said, the US does have its attractions to both the students and the teachers. The food was crap by all accounts but they soon learned you could order pizza in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
My husband had such a bad experience on a school trip (got left behind by the group as they didn wait for all the class at the top of the chair.lift, tried to guess the route they took and got it wrong as ended up on a black run and the resulting fall cracked a couple of ribs) that it took quite a few years for me to convince him to give skiing a second chance.
I am sure though that school ski trips are better organised now though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Wayne wrote: |
admin, nope we'll have to disagree on this one. The UK ski industry doesn't rely on school trips. A small number of operators do (as do a few teachers ). But the industry as a whole?, nope.
The whole scam that is the "School Ski Trip" business, should be looked into.
If the idea is (as Admin infers) to introduce children to the wonderful world of snowsports, why are they continually scammed into paying way over the odds for what is in effect a low level, reduced facility holiday with their mates. Surly the correct method of introducing anything to anyone is to provide a a good quality experience “at the correct price” so they will feel, in later life, that it is something that is available to them.
I imagine, at the moment that what is actually happening is that children (and their parents), with no experience of skiing, are left with a memory of an over-priced, disorganised trip, run by amateurish (however well meaning) teachers.
jowski that's just self-justification and an attempt to defend a decision already made.
Hey kids where do you want to go?
Bulgaria?, France?, Austria?, USA?
What a loaded question to ask a bunch of kids.
Next time I sort out a kids birthday party I'll do the same.
Hey kids do you want Broccoli?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?, Jelly?
| jowski wrote: |
| If I do not feel the kids are getting value for money we will simply offer an alternative to Europe. |
See here (pinched off the web )
Research shows that people are often rationalizing creatures as well, quite facile in their ability to justify their own actions, beliefs, and feelings after the fact. This phenomenon, known as self-justification, involves convincing oneself (and others) that what one did, felt, or thought was logically appropriate, even going so far as to invent plausible explanations when it is not immediately apparent why one acted, felt, or thought as one did. |
How do you come to the conclusion that the school ski trip business is a scam? Do you have any experience of organising one? You mention that they are run by amateurish teachers, but also suggest that inspection trips by teachers aren't necessary. So how do Teachers become less amateurish in their organising of trips. I suggest you try and arrange and conduct a trip for 80 kids (11-1 during February half term, before denigrating the attempts of teachers to provide kids with a positive experience of snowsports. By the way, I don't think £650 is too bad for an all inclusive week in Austria.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Wayne, well you can get all Freudian about it if you like but the mechanism is very simple.
The majority of people take up skiing because their parents did it. A substantial proportion of the rest, first experience it via a school/college trip.
So, for the industry to have grown as it did, at the end of the last century, either skiers were spawning more than most or school trips helped build the market.
Now I'm not under the misconception that teachers are saints - many could indeed do with a bit of that Freudian shizzle you're dishing out - but for every one that's 'reaping a few too any benefits' there are probably a dozen struggling to put together a trip that's inclusively affordable, despite being given no option by the LEA but to go during the most expensive week of the year.
There should be (IMHO) a week each term, set aside for 'extra curricular development', so 3 per year.
Each school should be able to select the week they use for this, allowing them to stage sports trips, language trips, museum visits etc. in a week that suits them and would hence reduce peaks of demand, making everything more affordable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| admin wrote: |
There should be (IMHO) a week each term, set aside for 'extra curricular development', so 3 per year.
Each school should be able to select the week they use for this, allowing them to stage sports trips, language trips, museum visits etc. in a week that suits them and would hence reduce peaks of demand, making everything more affordable. |
As long as this week is a single week for all and clearly advertised so we can avoid taking our hols that week
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| james75 wrote: |
| How do you come to the conclusion that the school ski trip business is a scam? Do you have any experience of organising one? You mention that they are run by amateurish teachers, but also suggest that inspection trips by teachers aren't necessary. So how do Teachers become less amateurish in their organising of trips. I suggest you try and arrange and conduct a trip for 80 kids (11-1 during February half term, before denigrating the attempts of teachers to provide kids with a positive experience of snowsports. By the way, I don't think £650 is too bad for an all inclusive week in Austria. |
No £650 is OK for Austria if it includes flights, hotels, equipment, lift pass, etc. basically everything.
And yes I have organised one for next year. For the school where my sister's kids go to. Not 80 (sorry) 58 kids and 12 adults in all.
I didn't really want to do it but after a threat of no Christmas prezzies by me sister, I agreed.
My only rules were:
All parents get a full copy of the accounts from me, not via the school but direct from me, these show exactly was has been supplied and at what cost.
The teachers, if they wanted to go had to agree to me including their costs with the parental reports - the LEA said the teacher had to go anyway.
There were no (and I mean none) freebees at the expense of the kids - if the teachers wanted to come out and have a look they could sort this out themselves.
Anyone (adults) other than teachers had to pay the same as the kids.
So 58 kids 12 teachers - total cost £43,750.
Includes: flights, transfers, hotel (3*) near slopes, full board, 4hrs per day lessons, equipment inc helmets, evening ents on 4 nights, plus 1 day (with English speaking official tourist guides), in Venice on the last day prior to flight home.
It does not include insurance as I'm not allowed to supply it - but that's dead cheap anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
£650 to go by Coach. Adding flights at Feb half term would have taken the cost too high. I've nevre been on a 'freebie' as you call it. However, if offered one, I would jump at the chance, as having some knowledge of a resort prior to taking 80 of other peoples kids there would be a huge advantage.
Regards your trip, is it during School holidays? and do you expect the teachers to pay?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Putting aside the USA vs Europe cost / school / teacher bashing discussion....
I went to the USA with my school one year.
Advantages were:
No drinking and easier for teachers to manage.
Better accomodation - in huge chalet type things so big communal areas rather than hotels like we were normally.
No language barrier.
Good access to enforced evening activities (lots of restaurants, cinema, bowling, etc etc etc. Hard to keep teenagers out of trouble in the alps!)
Pretty amazing trip to a part of the US I hadn't been before. We went to 10 days, at Easter and did 6 days skiing, a day and a bit in San Fran at the end & traveling time.
Downsides were:
Cost (Just over £1k compared to £600ish for the other Europe coach trips. We are talking 10 years ago now).
Only about 10 kids went due to cost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| james75 wrote: |
| Regards your trip, is it during School holidays? and do you expect the teachers to pay? |
I assume that the teachers are basically my reps for the week looking after their own group, so no they don't have to pay as their fees are included within the total cost.
It’s at half term. But having said this you need to remember that I’m just doing this as a favour to someone.
Out of interest, I have just worked out the cost of running a school trip (as a non-favour operation) for between 50 and 100 people. For a 2014 trip the cost would be:
Half Term £750
Non Half Term £650
Inc: flights - with the new ATOL cert, transfers, lift pass, 4 hrs a day school, equipment, 3* hotel by the slopes, full board, etc.
This is more than I charged my sister's kid's school as (as said) that was just a favour as they were about to get ripped off, and she bullied me into doing it
However I understand that this will be a non-starter as I would insist that parents were given a FULL copy of the accounts, and we all know that most schools would object to this. They would cite data-protection, student confidentiality, the TO hasn't yet provided us with..., the LEA rules forbid...., etc, etc, etc and anything else they could think of. But I honestly can’t see any (valid) reason for not telling parents what they are paying for. Maybe I'm just a bit dim.
Of course many areas/counties are more expensive than ours so I’m not suggesting that you could go to all areas in Europe for this amount, but by the same token, even though I have not tried, I’m sure I could come up with an area that was even cheaper.
Also, I could have done what many other people do and used a hotel down in the valley and reduce the cost by £100 PP, but I simply don’t want to run those types of trips.
Oh and not there is not much difference between the cost of a flight and a bus when you take into consideration driver’s accommodation, euro tunnel, etc, "if" the TO can negotiated the right deal with an airline and this all comes down to the school sorting themselves out early enough to allow this to happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
An important consideration for me is the teacher to pupil ratio, as they are different by air and coach.
1 in 8 for coach travel, and 1 in 10 for air travel. I think 1 to 8 is about right for taking care of the kids in resort.
I still don't understand where you get the idea that school trips are scams. I have no problem with parents having a full copy of the accounts of a trip and see no reason why schools should not send these to parents.
I can only assume that you have either
had a bad experience of a trip yourself,
have paid for a trip for a child and not felt that they have received a very good experience,
have only come across school trips that are a rip off
or that you have no idea of what organising a trip involves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
james75, I think Wayne speaks as a voice of experience in TO matters & generally organising group travel. I'm sure what he is alluding to here is that that there are plenty of schools travel operators making a healthy living off school ski trips while offering a sub standard product. They are aided and abetted in this by teachers who are experts in teaching not group travel procurement and potentially embarassment over "freebies".
Look up Chris Reynard on this very forum if you want to see examples of naivety and fundamental lack of understanding of due dilligence from schools and LEAs.
This is not a criticism of the hard work and effort put in by teachers around ski trips, just a reflection of the "captive market" opportunity they provide to operators by virtue of their size and timing.
My school ran ski trips, although I never went on one, and I understand the key elements that made them relatively affordable were the commitment of the Head of French who took upon himself to organise and contract with hotels direct, sponsorship by the headmaster who was too scary to allow much monkey business and of course good relations with local coach companies. When the French teacher retired and things were contracted to TOs AIUI prices rose considerably.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fatbob - That does make some sense.
The way he writes his posts, Wayne seems to make out that all school ski trips are scams, and that all teachers are out for a jolly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| james75 wrote: |
| The way he writes his posts, Wayne seems to make out that all school ski trips are scams, and that all teachers are out for a jolly. |
I have never said that teachers are scamming the kids who take part in a school trips. The reason I haven’t said it, is that I don’t think they would.
The scam is the entire way the system has been allowed to evolve, where kids are asked to pay way-over the going rate for sub-standards ski holidays, with no recourse when they (occasionally) go wrong?. A prime example would be to ask how many adults would be prepared to take a bus all the way to Austria, when with a little planning a flight could be had for around the same cost.
This could be simply and immediately resolved by stopping teachers from being involved in the administration of ski trips. A teacher could, for example, enquire if any parents would be interested in their child attending a ski trip. They could look around for a nice resort and propose that that would be a good venue.
If they have any interest than at this point the teacher would be taken out of the system and it should be taken over by people who actually know what they are doing. If this means that each LEA centralises their resources and employs ex-TO-industry people, then fine. An example of the benefits of this would be that an LEA could combine the trips and so allow for bulk-market discounts. It would also mean that the trips are being operated legally, which at the moment many of them aren’t. This is really simple – if you run trips on a regular basis to which you add features, you are a tour operator. You can quote H&S regs, all you like, but unless you comply with the law then waving a risk-assessment at the judge will do you sod all use.
Teachers are trained to teach. Teachers are not trained to operate small business with a turnover of tens of thousands of pound (of other people’s money).
I will reiterate: I don’t think teachers are doing anything like dipping into the funds they are in control of, but they definitely are (in some cases) preyed upon by a few unscrupulous people who see them as easy pickings.
We all know that one of the defining features of working in education is the over-riding desire to plan an escape route (the ability to pass the buck) for when things go pear shaped. Every time a school trip goes wrong some teacher or other will jump in with lots of reasons why it wasn’t their fault. But even with a tiny bit of pre-trip thought they problem wouldn’t have arisen. I am not talking about kids bumping into trees, bags getting lost, etc. I think we all understand what I’m referring to.
The fact that they may have been operating trips for years is irrelevant when considering if they should be allowed to continue..
The system at the moment allows untrained (however well meaning) teachers to play around with large amounts of other people’s money with no come-back when things go wrong.
I am not advocating stopping school ski trips, but rather stopping the current system. On this point I have no doubt that things will continue just about as they always have done, but hey, worth mooting the point .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
