 Poster: A snowHead
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... what chance have the Brits got?
No medals at the World Championships for the Swiss ski racers, a performance portrayed as a national disgrace by some of the Swiss media. Hence this latest campaign to find the money to save Swiss skiing, with ski racers portrayed as an endangered species.
Perhaps we should do something similar in the UK - hardly a case of comparing like with like though, doubt many Brits would respond positively to a direct appeal for funds!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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British competitive skiers have, in the past couple of decades, achieved greatest success in the less televised areas of the sport: Graham Wilkie set the world speed record in 1987, Vaila Macdonald won the World Extreme Ski Championships in Alaska in [I'd have to trawl the files to check the date], and - from memory - some of our freestylers have been well up the rankings.
In snowboarding, Lesley McKenna has ranked very high.
Maybe the answer is to focus talent and resources where the fruits of effort are most likely to be plucked.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Maybe the answer is to focus talent and resources where the fruits of effort are most likely to be plucked
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No that's a bad idea as it does not work, it's just how the current system works and annoys the heck out of our atheletes, you cannot say lets not fund ... Downhill racers ..... because currently we have no one in the top .... whatever..... because there could be people out there who'd be more than capable of competing at the highest levels for our country were it not for the lack of funding.
It would help if snow sports events recieved better coverage on TV lots of people used to watch Ski Sunday because it was shown mid afternoon on a Sunday, I would suggest that the audiance figures for Channel 4's efforts are much lower because of both its timing and the lack of publicity given to the shows, even though the shows tend to cover a wider range of snow events
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PG, It says a lot about the Swiss attitude to things important to them. An attribute that you have to admire in their focus/belligerence.
Alas I gave up on Brits getting their act together on anything important like sport years ago. You only have to watch the zillions wasted on finding a genuine WINNER in Tennis and watch posh money follow posh folks to get a sense of the problem. Heck, the Swiss are even better at that sport now I think about it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For a non-alpine country we do very well in my opinion. we don't have anywhere near the same budget or infrastructure that the other top countries have and our relative success' are probably in spite of, rather than due to, our funding.
Most of our winter Olympic atheletes have made huge sacrifices to get to compete. I would like to see a permanent fund for winter sports but where would the money come from? Maybe they should earmark lottery money for sports in general - it is certainly a better cause than some I can think of - and allocate some for winter sports. But to expect Britsish atheletes to compete with the likes of Austria and Switzerland is just rediculous. Their champions start at two and get support all the way through. The amount of talent directed at alpine sports is huge.
Our pool is minute and the drain on sporting talent is diluted by the numbers of sports we participate in. The Brits complete, I would guess, at more sports at an international level than ANY other nation in the world. Just watch the BBC when they list our world champions in the BBC sports personality of the year. We have loads in any given year. The Swiss and Austrains have so so much less, for example.
Its a no wonder we can't compete. We have had some pretty good efforts tho' down the years. We should applaud that IMV.
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Being contrary because it's a subject I am keen on 
| JT wrote: |
| For a non-alpine country we do very well in my opinion. we don't have anywhere near the same budget or infrastructure that the other top countries have and our relative success' are probably in spite of, rather than due to, our funding. |
Undoubtedly true , but my core point is that drive and focus are more important
| Quote: |
| But to expect Britsish atheletes to compete with the likes of Austria and Switzerland is just rediculous. |
I can name a number of sports that these countries do better than us in. I hope I haven't just put the mockers on the English soccer team.
| Quote: |
Our pool is minute and the drain on sporting talent is diluted by the numbers of sports we participate in. The Brits complete, I would guess, at more sports at an international level than ANY other nation in the world. |
Yes, you are guessing ! Living In France I am amazed at the vast numbers of sports (including some we don't figure in) that they enjoy - and excel at.
| Quote: |
| Just watch the BBC when they list our world champions in the BBC sports personality of the year. We have loads in any given year. The Swiss and Austrains have so so much less, for example. |
and France ? .. Switzerland and Austria are only a bit bigger than Wales !
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I guess if one takes the Swiss analogy a stage further the survival of the endangered species is assured by mating ski racers in captivity.
They'd be a lot more co-operative than giant pandas. If a female Swiss ski racer is mated with a male Swiss ski racer they'd probably produce offspring capable of thrashing any Austrian.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, you have unleased some lateral thought processes which are extremely worrying. My first on having read your post was, if a Swiss Ski Racer (of either gender) was mated with a Giant Panda of the opposite gender then the Swiss problems would be over. (At least until the Austrians got hold of a Giant Panda!) 
Great campaign poster though.
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eEvans, PG,
I don't want to hijack this thread but off the top of my head...
Football, rugby - Union and League, Cricket, Grid Iron, Athletics is a given, Swimming, Diving, Weight lifting, Boxing, sailing, shooting, all manner of water sports, - Darts, Snooker Not what I would call sports, but a great talent is required. All motor sports to moto cross, cycling. etc etc etc, badminton, squash, table tennis, volley ball, hockey, Horse riding. and again etc etc.
I doubt if I have scratched the surface much. As a bit of a counter, Germany don't compete at, say rugby or cricket, and France don't do RL or cricket. Without a definitive list it is, of course, hard to quantify, but I can't think of another country that competes as much. But follow the BBC show in afew months to see which current world championships we hold. I bet you are surprised. And, yes, most I hadn't heard of either..!!
And PG, it is not true to say we occassionally win cups mainly thanks to foreign players. The last CL success prior to Liverpool was by Man U with a predomiately British/home grown bias. Before that and Hysel, we 'owned' the European cup with Liverpool, Notts F and Aston V vitually taking it in turns from the mid 70's to '84 after which we got banned for 5 yrs. We also won THAT game 4-2 so the ball over the line controversy wasn't a defing factor.
When I talk about international sports, I generally mean more than a few nations partaking so American Football isn't really one of them. Even Rugby U isn't played by that many countries (10 or so top class teams ) and RL even less so try and remember to exclude real minority sports!
But anyway, my main point was that we have a massive drain on the potential talent pool because of the number of sports we pursue as a nation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not going to get into listing comparisons, but I would bet that the Brits are not competing at world class level at the same number of sports as the French, for example.
(The French do play rugby league by the way!)...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG,
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 5-10-05 15:16; edited 1 time in total
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PG, Like perhaps the arguments regarding the cyclical aspects of weather change, is it not fair to say that nation's and teams sporting achievements rise and fall in a natural cycle? Some higher and lower than others it must be admitted! A lack of success for a time and then a new star, or stars emerges and restores the silverware?
France's star is fading somewhat in The Beautiful Game, Rugby, Tour de France, etc, but I have no doubts that it will rise again!
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You know it makes sense.
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PG,
You're right, this is way off topic but I would be surprised if that were the case, or anyone else for that matter.
But I did say International class and I would be dissappointed if you said, for example, that we didn't compete
in World cup skiing, for example at an international class. We've had a WC top two place in DH, a bronze in the Olympics, slalom, ruled out by a technicality IMV. Not really questioning it but he did achieve the time! Thats just the men. I'm sure you have more
results in disciplines to hand but for a non-alpine nation, thats not too bad...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bernard, as with the original post in this thread, I reckon it mostly boils down to money these days - the more money, the better the training infrastructure from school upwards. As eEvans suggests, the level to which sports and leisure clubs are subsidised locally and regionally in France means that the smallest of towns has facilities that a community of equivalent size in the UK would struggle to match. I lived in a smallish village (Malaucène, 2,500 inhabitants), not especially well off, for ten years - it had its own stadium with rugby/soccer teams, judo, taekwondo, karate, boules, gymnastics, athletics, cycling, climbing, skiing, tennis clubs among others, all in the village. Kids just get out and do more as a result, I'm sure of it. (And I won't go into diet now, there have been a few threads on that already!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As we only have a limited amount of money to put into sport, and we're not an alpine nation, I really do feel that the money would be better spent on other grassroots sports and sponsorship rather than skiing, sailing, cricket, and football for instance. Perhaps returning playing fields to school and local authority ownership.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PG, love that poster! Can't see who the girl on the podium is, but it doesn't look like any genuine Swiss Team suit of the past couple of decades - staged photo? Is she wearing Raichle boots? (Another endangered species!) And that lynx reminds me of course how Two Elk Restaurant on Vail Mountain also became an endangered species - "on behalf of the lynx".
In the 80s I always wondered how Switzerland could be so successful without ski academies - now it seems they're rectifying that.
One major difference is that other European nations give their sportspeople "nominal" jobs (army, customs, inland revenue, forestry, etc) and allow them unlimited time off to train and compete. The Italians specialise in this. Tomba "worked" for the Carabinieri but I doubt he ever had to direct traffic...
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| PG, love that poster! Can't see who the girl on the podium is, but it doesn't look like any genuine Swiss Team suit of the past couple of decades - |
Are you suggesting it would have been easier without the skisuit ? Well I guess you would know better than us.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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 - Slightly bigger picture...
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| eEvans wrote: |
| Are you suggesting it would have been easier without the skisuit ? |
Most things are.
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Martin Bell, Touchee 
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eEvans,
The BBC can't say so and so is a world champ unless they are, so how's that breat beating?
And I can't be bothered either but unless you quanify your reply it doesn't add up to much, does it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't understand why everyone always puts down our national sports teams/players in this country-it's like a national obsession....
We are the best cricket side in the world (IMO), we are world champions in rugby union, our football team is clearly one of the best in the world man for man (although judging by recent performances you wouldn't have thought so)...these are our main sports in this country, and i don't think we are doing too badly atm.
Another example is Tim Henman-i'm not saying i was/am a particular fan of the guy, or that he is a world class player, but he is the best that we have had for the last ten years-nobody else has been able to do any better, but still people slate him and put him down-it's not his fault there is nobody better than him!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Chris_5000, Ah well that'd be the British desease buildemupandknockemdownitus. It's sad but true. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Chris_5000, Noone has been putting down British sportspersons in this thread. I admire anyone who performs to the best of their ability in any sport.
IncogSkiSno, 's 'buildemupandknockemdownitus' is however true. We do have the habit of inflating their prowess ( and this was the core of the debate with JT). 'Henmania' is a pretty good example of this.
My core point being that we (as a country) are not as committed to sporting excellence as other countries (hence the French analogies), consequently we ido not nvest in the necessary infrastructure, facilities and programs at local and national level to achieve this - these shortcomings seem particularly prevalent at junior levels.
There are notable exceptions and some anomalies . You may have heard Michael Johnson speaking about British Athletics. His assertion being that too much lottery money was being wasted on mediocre performances in the UK with payments made to athletes based upon national prowess rather than international success - consequently British athletes have little financial incentive to win anything other than beating their UK opposition. Additionally, the Olympic 'Success and Reward' scheme invests in sports we have historically done well in (e.g. sailing - thank goodness Darts isn't an Olympic sport) - thereby marginalising those sports that we NEED to invest in to compete on the global stage. Skiing comes into that category as far as I am concerned - underinvested and, I suspect, inadequately structured. All IMHO and too much Fred Drift by me.
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i think we should invest far more money in sailing than sking.. just as switzerland would do the opposite.. thats down to geography.. i would say the football facilities in this country are some of the best in the world, much of it funded by clubs thus not draining the chancellors coffers.. rugby is going the same way.. cricket will soon get there if the national team remains sucsessful.. i can see a lot more kids wanting to play next summer .. those are our three main sports sking is seen by most as recreation.. a bit of fun and a few drinks not a competitive sport.. and even if we did have a world champion, intrest in watching it would be fleeting.. we cant host a world championships in this country and lets face it unless you are really into the racing its hardly compulsive viewing...
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You know it makes sense.
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CANV CANVINGTON, a case in point - the Swiss took the America's Cup last time out!
Skiing can be made more interesting as a spectator sport, when FIS wakes up and does something about it. In the meantime I'm certainly not disputing the need for more investment in sports that are 'nearer to home'. The benefits of sport (not necessarily competitive) for young people are underestimated by many, yet help to produce more balanced, rounded, healthy young people.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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does anyone care about the americas cup anymore..? the swiss won it.. or some hughly rich bloke who is either swiss, has a business there or used a swiss base to secure sponsership..?..
and i honestly dont know.. i just dont see the americas cup as a national sporting event..
i'd count up olympic medals or just look out at many of britains estuarys and count up the number of sailing boats ..
as for making downhill more intresting on t.v... maybe if you got 5 skiers to race down the mountain.. though health n safety may have a word there
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| as for making downhill more intresting on t.v... maybe if you got 5 skiers to race down the mountain.. though health n safety may have a word there |
Already exists - skierX!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And very exciting it is to watch - especially if there is a 'skycam' shot alongside the normal view. The skycam gives a true view of who is in the lead and who has cut up who. I think they run the camera down a wire above the middle of the course.
Great TV. And although it's competitive it seems to be quite friendly - lots of mutual congratulation and back slapping.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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maybe some kind of rollerball option.. where knocking people of the piste/track is encouraged.. may have to up the prize money to cover the extra insurance.. and im guessing if you last more than half a season you will be considered a veteran
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Again a bit late on this but :
CANV CANVINGTON, Think you'll find that Austria did rather well at the last Olympic sailing regatta ( 2nd or 3rd in the medal table) , being another landlocked country with a high winter sports predilection. Plenty of money going into UK sailing ( although too little for the city youngsters IMHO ) - and yes I can/do sail - and surely you don't see the RYA as the embodiment of successful sporting bodies?
Am I the only oik who enjoys skiing on TV in its current forms? Winter Sports first captured my imagination c. 1960 ( Dixon and Nash ??) and I have loved following the exploits of Galica (sp?) , Bartelski (sp?) , those awful Bell blokes , Baxter . Alcott et al albeit via the gogglebox.
Question for all - If people like us ( assuming we are all somewhat 'taken' by wintersports) can not advocate the funding of those sports in the UK at the expense of other sports then who on earth will? Shouldn't we all be behaving as evangelists for the next great white frontier etc.?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eEvans wrote: |
| Am I the only oik who enjoys skiing on TV in its current forms? Winter Sports first captured my imagination c. 1960 ( Dixon and Nash ??) and I have loved following the exploits of Galica (sp?) , Bartelski (sp?) , those awful Bell blokes , Baxter . Alcott et al albeit via the gogglebox. |
I enjoy winter sports on TV, and think Channel 4's coverage is a bit better than Ski Sunday (except for the silly time of day it is broadcast). But I think there's a lot more that can be done to improve coverage - if ITV can make Formula 1 interesting I'm sure that more can de done with skiing!
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..
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 6-10-05 13:41; edited 1 time in total
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| PG wrote: |
| CANV CANVINGTON, a case in point - the Swiss took the America's Cup last time out! |
Ah, but didn't Alinghi hire a Kiwi skipper?
I suppose if Xscape had had more money than the oil sheikhs of Dubai, Kilian Albrecht would now be skiing for Britain and "managing" MK and Castleford...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| eEvans wrote: |
| Question for all - If people like us ( assuming we are all somewhat 'taken' by wintersports) can not advocate the funding of those sports in the UK at the expense of other sports then who on earth will? Shouldn't we all be behaving as evangelists for the next great white frontier etc.? |
While it is true that mass participation is a factor in deciding funding from the Sports Council (or whatever they're calling it nowadays), the mechanism that should really exploit it is on the commercial side.
So if enough of you out there book your holidays through Ski Independence, purely because they sponsor Finlay Mickel, Ski Independence will be able to continue that deal and perhaps even sponsor more racers. And other tour ops will then see what has happened and rush to sponsor skiers and snowboarders as well.
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The interesting Swiss campaign to 'rescue' their national ski racers is explained in more detail in this report from Reuters.
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FAQ
