 Poster: A snowHead
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Seeing the Snow-Be stand at Earl's court (and yes I recalled the thread and won't go down that route) reminded me about a niggling issue. I have taken to buying the (competent) kids of 10 and 13 yrs by next trip a personal instructor for a few hours to get some instruction, but largely have some fun on and often (it seems from the reports that come back) technically off-piste (I guess largely through trees) where I can't take them.
Am I being irresponsible to let them do this without giving them a transceiver at the very least (though granted I understand it is no good finding someone unless you can probe and dig them up)? Would their instructor be carrying one?
livetoski spent a lot of time talking to them at Earls court and they both seemed very interested in the technology esp. when he showed them how the transcievers find each other. As far as I can see it won't be many more years before they are buying themselves fat skis and wanting to 'fly'. Should I get them engrained into off-piste safety now while they are young?
Obviously I don't want to chuck £100's at this, but I've found these online Ortovox Patroller Digital Avalanche transceiver Beacon http://www.ortovox.com/avalanche-transceivers/patroller-digital-2
I could probably afford two of these - any thoughts on this model and the possible wisdom or otherwise of sticking them on the kids when they go off with an instructor for a few hours.
The assumption being that they would learn to use them ( I think they are old enough), either on a SH's learning day out or on our own 10 acres.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, If I go on an off piste trip with my daughter (usually with easiski) I rent a pack with everything in it for the day for each of us. Costs 20 euros each in L2A. The ski school may also have some.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Am I being irresponsible to let them do this without giving them a transceiver at the very least |
No, not at all. Gentle terrain through trees with an instructor wouldn't require a transceiver.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Were Snow-Be there? I thought they had gone under or something since they didn't ship my transmitter, didn't respond to any emails, nor even to the paypal dispute I opened to get my money back.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feef, they def. were they handed us their leaflets (I guess 'cos we walked past with kids - I kept them as I recalled the SH's thread and thought I'd go and see what their website currently said) which states their website as www.snow-be.com and a phone number of 0800 9752334 - if they owe you cash you could try contacting them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, They don't owe me anything PayPal found the dispute in my favour after they didn't respond and refunded me. It just seems strange. It's not as if it was last year or a long time ago, it was only a couple of months.
What IS interesting, is that the Snow-Beacon website doesn't seem to work any more:
http://www.snow-beacon.com/
but snow-be does. I wonder if they have changed hands in the last month or so.
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Megamum, if the instructor thought they needed transceivers, he would tell you so. You could find better uses for the dosh - more lessons for instance. Champagne. Psychoanalysis. 
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feef, I think the new website is in response to a different marketing strategy. Rightly or wrongly they are marketing to families with a view to giving them to kids to carry off piste who, arguably, would be too young to use a transceiver to search for victims, but who might need finding themselves. However, their marketing leaflet is a little mixed up in that respect, because ostensibly their stand staff were on about the child safety aspect, yet their leaflet still mentions that 'If everyone used snow-be in resort.....etc' although it also mentions their use by a 7 year old daughter. However, the details here and above may help someone - it just made me think along the lines of the OP.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard,
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if the instructor thought they needed transceivers, he would tell you so
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Hopefully so, and you are probably correct in that statement, it has never been mentioned, although there are plenty of SH's threads about what constitutes on an off piste, and there appears to be a standing instruction that off-piste equals avalanche kit. Though I must admit I've always looked at from risk assessment in the areas they do pop off into at the piste edge now. In terms of your other points - how early is too early to start to learn about these things? If I can get them skiing thinking about mountain safety as naturally as they breathe then surely the mountain gets two safer skiers later on in life. It's not a mother hen response IMO it's life skills. I wonder how early other people start their kids thinking about such things? They showed a clear interest in the concept, I just wondered if that interest was worth harvesting.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... and a standing instruction that off-piste equals avalanche kit. |
I think better to say that off-piste should equal avalanche education (eg read a book, look at some online resources, read the weather and avalanche reports for your resort) rather than off-piste = avy kit.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Snow-be are a morally bankrupt business.
They've shot themselves in the foot once and are now back pedalling a variant on the original story once again - if it's explicitly for kids on piste then they are scaremongering, if it's for any off-piste use it's irresponsible. I don't buy the argument that kids are too young to search for anyone so they don't need receive. If they can work a phone they can work a transceiver and I've a 3 year old niece that can work a phone. I may try her with a transceiver to see how long it takes her to get it.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 5-11-12 15:32; edited 1 time in total
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I have shown kids as young as 10 how to use a transceiver and they usually pick it up quicker than their parents! They are used to learning how to use an new electronic device. As to who would remain calm if there was an avalanche, that is a different question.
I think transceivers is one of those things where you shouldn't just buy the cheapest model you can find. Personally I am a fan of the BCA Tracker which can be found for not much more than the Patroller you mentioned.
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You know it makes sense.
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Davidof, The ONLY context a transmit only beacon is acceptable is for training purposes.
This is why Snow-Be are indeed a morally bankrupt buisness and deserve to be called out for their marketting and poor product.
Doggy beacons are not acceptable...
- what happens if Fido starts running about the search zone and you can't turn his beacon off?
- what happens if a buried dog is located before other human victims ?
As for equiping 12 years kids with avalanche beacons... I dont know many 12 year old kids that have the experience and knowledge to be skiing off piste in an alpine environment on their own. Its knowledge, not equipment, that keeps you safe! Much better to educate them first then buy them the gear when they are actually ready.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 5-11-12 15:38; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
Snow-be are a morally bankrupt business.
They've shot themeselves in the foot once and are now back pedalling a variant on the original story once again - if it's explicitly for kids on piste then they are scaremongering, if its for any off-piste use it's irresponsible. I don't buy the argument that kids are too young to search for anyone so they don't need receive. If they can work a phone they can work a transceiver and I've a 3 year old niece that can work a phone. I may try her with a transceiver to see how long it takes her to get it. |
What kid wouldn't want to learn how to use a James Bond Homing device??
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Davidof - The ONLY context a transmit only beacon is acceptable is for training purposes.
This is why Snow-Be are indeed a morally bankrupt buisness and deserve to be called out for their marketting and poor product.
Doggy beacons are not acceptable...
- what happens if Fido starts running about the search zone and you can't turn his beacon off?
- what happens if a buried dog is located before other human victims ?
As for equiping 12 years kids with avalanche beacons... I dont know many 12 year old kids that have the experience and knowledge to be skiing off piste in an alpine environment on their own. Its knowledge, not equipment, that keeps you safe! |
AIUI the doggy beacons are on a different frequency, so you have to switch to the dog-find mode.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ I would certainly hope any device used as a doggy beacon is on a different frequency.
Worryingly the Ortovox doggy device linked above seems to be 457kHZ !?
Have certainly seen people going ski touring in the alps with old F1s on their dogs before....
Either way - Transmit only devices are only useful for training purposes. They have no place in the mountains.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap, I spotted that and thought it seemed little different to the Snow-be
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This reminds me of my thread from two years ago when I said I wanted to buy my son a cheap transceiver and I was lambasted by some posters for the word cheap.
What I had in mind was something very similar to Megamum's link above (or maybe the same in another colour). I did get it. Works great as transmit unit but can also do search, even if probably not the best at this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I agree with Haggis_Trap,IMHO the key strategy to avoid being killed in an avalanche is not being in one.
I once heard that once your head goes under you only have a 1 in 6 chance of surviving. It's like a game of Russian Roulette but with 5 bullets and one empty chamber. All the gear and you have two empty chambers, still not great odds. I would say if there's a chance of an avalanche great enough to warrant "kit" then it's probably not the right place to take kids until they can make informed choices for themselves. Having said all that I took my kids off piste from around 10, but very stable snowpacks and not steep.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Having said all that I took my kids off piste from around 10, but very stable snowpacks and not steep.
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jbob, I'm interested to know - did you give them avi kit?
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| jbob wrote: |
I agree with Haggis_Trap,IMHO the key strategy to avoid being killed in an avalanche is not being in one.
I once heard that once your head goes under you only have a 1 in 6 chance of surviving. It's like a game of Russian Roulette but with 5 bullets and one empty chamber. All the gear and you have two empty chambers, still not great odds. I would say if there's a chance of an avalanche great enough to warrant "kit" then it's probably not the right place to take kids until they can make informed choices for themselves. Having said all that I took my kids off piste from around 10, but very stable snowpacks and not steep. |
if they want to ski off piste then you, or whoever needs full avi kit, AT ALL TIMES. they need to know how to use it. they have to be aware of mountain safety . It all comes as one package and not to be used seperately. No room for debate.
Avalanches are indiscriminate of experience, qualification , age etc.
"if theres a chance of an avalanche great enough to warrant kit then its not the right place to take kids" etc ... ???
plenty to rent at good rates
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Megamum, No. That was the point of my post, I wouldn't have taken them into a situation where there was any significant risk. So in your scenario, with an instructor who was happy, and on gentle slopes through trees then I would have been happy to take them.
It's a very fine call, the most dangerous place by far in a ski resort is the home run, late in the day. If you look at the stats for fatalities, on piste collisions are way way ahead of avalanches. Bottom line I guess is how would you feel if something happened.
The first time I took my girls skiing, one of them twisted her knee while in ski school, between being told by her instructor and arriving at the medical centre where she had been taken by the piste rescue, I gave myself a real beating! Thankfully she was ok.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Megamum, You could find better uses for the dosh - Psychoanalysis. |
if the instructor thinks they need a transciever then he will sort that.
If you happen to have a beacon then why not strap it on- but that isn't the end of it by a long way.
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PS- couple of years back I fell on my transceiver and broke my ribs!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ I would certainly hope any device used as a doggy beacon is on a different frequency.
Worryingly the Ortovox doggy device linked above seems to be 457kHZ !?
Have certainly seen people going ski touring in the alps with old F1s on their dogs before....
Either way - Transmit only devices are only useful for training purposes. They have no place in the mountains. |
The Pieps one is definitely a different frequency (there's a separate button on the corresponding transceiver to switch the search to doggy frequency).
The Snow-Be is one of the most  up ideas I've ever come across.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[b]Megamum[b], the instructor wouldn't take them into avi terrain without the kit, and would talk to you about it first (if indeed they'd take them at all). Nothing wrong with them learning about avi safety now - though I'd take them to a course/have a lesson on the topic rather than just buy them trannies.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I don't buy the argument that kids are too young to search for anyone so they don't need receive. If they can work a phone they can work a transceiver and I've a 3 year old niece that can work a phone. I may try her with a transceiver to see how long it takes her to get it. |
Using and playing with one I agree, but in a real avi situation I think the majority of kids wouldn't be mentally 'there' enough to participate effectively in a rescue. Doesn't mean learning to use one is a bad idea though.
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You know it makes sense.
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And you certainly don't want them running about on transmit.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just to add to the debate about 'all off piste needs avi kit' - I think in a situation with an instructor who knows the mountain like the back of their hand and is going ahead of the class, and everyone's going at a sensible speed, it's fine in side-of-piste stuff.
It all depends on what you mean by 'off piste'. If you mean proper big bowls and runs then, yes. Avi kit. It you mean just pottering along slightly outside the piste markers, sometimes going round a few trees, then be sensible.
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FAQ
