Just had a conversation about how to teach someone to snowplough turn that is just starting to ski and how not to over confuse things for the beginner but with getting the step by step points over in an easy way to remember.
Just interested what everyone's thoughts are
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Surely it will vary depending on the person who is learning to ski?
Key thing for the teacher to understand is the snowplough for first-timers is formed mainly by rotating the skis (not so much edge or pressure on the skis). So I would probably say hold the skis in a snowplough shape and keep pointing them in the direction that you want to turn ("you'll change direction by twisting the skis with your legs, but the main thing to focus on is pointing the skis in the direction you want to head in"). Keep turning your snowplough around the turn until your skis are across the slope and you have controlled your speed, then you can start to point them in the opposite direction to begin the next turn.
Depending on the learner just doing a good demo might be sufficient. Or perhaps getting them to follow you closely. Or ski around some poles you set out. Or some sort of game
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Snowy23,
The way I teach very young kids seems to work fine.
On a very gentle slope
Make a V shape with your skis
Slide down the slope with your arms stretched out at shoulder height (I just demo this)
Lean outwards like an airplane, look at your higher hand and you'll turn
Straighten up
Lean the other way
To stop just keep turning till you stop
Not very technical, but it works and gets em moving very quickly, and they enjoy it as they can do it.
(you'll find that once they start turning they'll steer their feet anyway, without me telling em to)
Normally the only correction needed is to stop them bending the outer knee too much, but I don't worry about that, as it's a holiday
I’ve never found a kid that can’t do this, but if I did my plan would be go to an even gentler slope.
Point the V / Arrow / Plough where you want to go... see what happens and then refine as required.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Snowy23,
The answer depends on the type of learner you have, their physical development and age.
Before you can do anything with a plough turn you need to make sure that the basics of balance and stance are in place. Then they need to be able to do a good straight plough glide and show the ability to rotate the skis into and out of the plough shape. If these are not in place there is no point moving to plough turning.
Hovever
It does not matter how simple you think you are making instructions, sometimes a learner actually needs to be able to 'feel' what they need to do. One way to cut away all the talk is (If you are willing to get down on you hands and knees) is by giving the learner a couple of runs where you hold their tips and rotate the skis for them to give them a feel for the movements that they need to make. start with a small wiggle and your way up to bigger turns. Its hard work but in a group where one or two are failing to grasp the verbal or visual instruction you can see the 'click' as they suddenly get what they are supposed to be doing because they can feel the movement patern.
You can then ramp up the size of the turns and speed by holding their tips and skiing backward.
The answer depends on the type of learner you have, their physical development and age.
^^^^ This!!!
I teach a partucular type of way that works for 75% -80% of my clients but I start every class with " I teach a certain type of way class, if you are finding it diffucult to grasp or to understand shout and let me know we can change the teaching style to suit, now lets go have fun"
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sometime the problem is that the easiest way for us to teach isn't the easiest way for our clients to learn. It depends so much on who is learning. A 4yr old will learn differently to a 10yr old, a fit adult will learn differently to an unfit adult, a Down's syndrome learner is different again. The more balance the learner has then in general the less teaching they need. Teach a fit teenager to straight run and snowplough glide then they can probably turn both ways at the first attempt if you give a goood demo. Point the skis where you want to go is usually the best starting bid.
After all it is free
After all it is free
My first appraoch is always:
"make a plough then do absolutely nothing other than push out the back/tail/heel of your opposite ski",
works for weak turns with most students after a couple of runs, then add pressing on your big toe,
"first push out to start the turn wait 1 second then press on big toe",
if that works (and only once on a slightly steeper slope else they will go in a straight line diagonally)
"now push out, wait, press, wait, now lean outside the turn (or down the hill) to finish the turn off"
Honestly it works with the majority of students if everything else is kind of right, note: push out back of ski must be replaced with "turn foot or toes inward" for about 20% of students.
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for safety i will add, this method probably only works on a short baby slope and would most likely result in pain and hate if applied to a steeper slope like a snowdome..
Also for the love of all that you hold holy, do not just tell a grown (probably scared) adult to do a V just try and go in a different direction and see what happens, (it works fine with kids, they bounce) but will cause runaway students, crashes, screaming, swearing and/or tears!
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Quote:
("you'll change direction by twisting the skis with your legs, but the main thing to focus on is pointing the skis in the direction you want to head in").
This seems completely wrong to me.
We were taught to teach the turning by weighting the outer ski and bending and extending. Whether this is by leaning with 'wings', cleaning the snow off a boot, scooping up snow for a snow ball etc.. etc..
Nothing about twisting or forcing skis etc... all seems a bit wrong to me.
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flangesax, indeed! However, the BASI flight plan indicates that you must teach rotation first. Most instructors take this to mean that the plough must somehow be pointed in the intended direction. They demonstrate how simple this is but, somehow, fail to realise they're actually using pressure to achieve this. Some clients will try to do what they are asked and end up contra-rotating their upper bodies. I can't understand how this important stage has been left so wooly.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
flangesax, different approaches I guess. For someone who is completely new to making a snowplough it's likely that their ability to balance more on one leg is going to be fairly limited so their ability to manage the pressure on their skis is going to make it harder to create a good turn unless they also use some rotation. I've never liked the big sideways bend with the upper body as I don't think it's a good foundation for more advanced skiing. As soon as a student can manage linked plough turns by rotation I would then start to introduce some flexion and extension movements, but with the legs rather than upper body. Spooted this video yesterday which I think shows some nice plough turns. Notice there's no bending at the waist, just steering the turn with rotation and flexion and extension of the legs.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
hate to get involved with this but leaning at the waist like an airplane and or pushing out the heels although might be effective to achieve a result early on but starts to imbed problems to be removed later...
Ali the guy in the yellow trousers on the video gives good demo...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
flangesax wrote:
Quote:
("you'll change direction by twisting the skis with your legs, but the main thing to focus on is pointing the skis in the direction you want to head in").
This seems completely wrong to me.
We were taught to teach the turning by weighting the outer ski and bending and extending. Whether this is by leaning with 'wings', cleaning the snow off a boot, scooping up snow for a snow ball etc.. etc..
Nothing about twisting or forcing skis etc... all seems a bit wrong to me.
Also the way I was taught (with the Tirolerschilehrerverband - guess it's an Austrian thing), but with leg flexion as well as the upper body 'lean.' A la:
Just seems completely wrong and pointless.
The balance issue should be pretty much sorted before turning anyhow... using lifting, bending, hopping, jumping, walking, scooting on one ski etc.. etc..
IMO it is incorrect and pointless to teach 'twisitng'.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Learning to steer a relatively flat ski by rotation is easier to do and will control speed, a beginner making turns by pressure alone may struggle to control speed and may also find it difficult to alter turn shape.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
flangesax, It is not 'twisting' it is steering by controlled rotation that is being taught . You can see it in a good demo if you look at the tips of the skis the turning (outside) ski will 'tuck in' slightly behind the tip of the other ski.
The problem with the older technique of teaching early plough turning by weight transfer is that the learner (should that be lean'er) will often struggle to progress beyond this point because they learn to turn on heavily edged skis. They can turn and the technique works to get quick progress out of a student, however to move on from this stage they have then to let go of their 'saftey blanket' that is the speed control that the heavily edged ski gives.
This makes the progression from plough turns to plough parallel much harder as it is not a straightforward progression of movements, as rotation of a flat ski is now important.
It is also difficult to complete a turn with pressure alone in a plough, to get the skis across the hill you need rotation. As you ramp up the slope angle a skiier who simply 'leans' to turn will have very poor turn shape and will tend to accelerate often out of control and into the safety fence at high speed.
Yep it makes for a more difficult movement to master earlier on, but saves many hours of frustration 'unlearning' the first few steps.
I would say however that most of the above applies to older kids and adults. Younger children seem to learn very well using the 'airplane' technique especially is they have to make engine noises at the same time
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Keep it simple! A lot of over complicated hot air being talked here...
BASI / CASI central theme is clear on the progression for learning snow plough turns.
1. Introductory Activities
2. Straight Running
3. Plough Glide - snow plough in straight line on gentle slope.
4. Plough Turn 1 - first use pressure, down into ground via big toe, to turn each ski.
5. Plough Turn 2 - then introduce the idea of rotation / leg steering as part of the turn.
6. Plough Turn 3 - finally introduce the leg extension (stand tall at start of turn) and compression (during turn sink low)
The key is to build up the steering elements of the snow-plough turn via steps 4,5,6.
So they can eventually use the same elements in a 'plough-parallel' and eventually 'parallel' turn.
Quote:
rob@rarSurely it will vary depending on the person who is learning to ski?
Quote:
The answer depends on the type of learner you have, their physical development and age.
Not really - Had dubious pleasure of teaching my fair share of snow ploughs over the years. Some people obviously learn faster than others... Some exercises / drills are better suited to certain ages & fitness. But you would always almost always use the same under lying 'central theme' progression (just with different drills / explanations to suit)
Haggis_Trap, The current BASI manual has rotation as the first stage of learning to turn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
2p here guys - twisting (rotating the legs) is a very valuable skill. flangesax, do you turn your skis by JUST standing on the outside ski? Try it. Without the skill, balance and co-ordination of being able to carve it will be fairly useless. Equally, on anything other than very flat terrain turning by using JUST leg rotation won't work too well either.
There is a blend of movements during a turn, whether it is a wedge turn or a dynamic parallel turn. It's just that some systems teach one movement pattern more than others. I don't think rob@rar, meant teach wedge turning by solely using rotary movements of the leg, but that is what he would choose to teach first. So would I really!! It's such an important skill and if we can teach it in the early lessons, the client will have better skills in the long term.
As always you do have to adapt the methods depending on the client.
Wayne, I would be reluctant to teach kids to use that method as it will encourage upper body rotation (looking up at inside/high hand).
Hope you guys don't mind my ramblings!! Good little debate
Haggis_Trap, The current BASI manual has rotation as the first stage of learning to turn.
Fair enough, order of the manual may have changed a smidge since I last got BASI-ed
However the principal remains the same.
-> Teach snowplough shape / glide
-> Basic turning elements (rotation & pressure)
-> Up & down leg extensions during turn phases.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Our progression:
Schuss
plough
plough with run out turns (using weighting techniques)
Alpiine Basic Position (in traverse position on ski edges.)
Edging and sliding in this position.
Carving Grundstuffe. (turning using the Apline Basic position, using snowplough turns, with extensions and weighting.
So the 'ability to carve' is not the secret extra bit the UK skiers all seem to build up to learn or progress to. The basic position is taught as soon as possible and integrated fully between each plough turn (with inside ski sliding into position at th eend of each turn).
After all it is free
After all it is free
flangesax wrote:
Just seems completely wrong and pointless.
Twisting/rotating the skis is one of the three fundamental ways we steer them. Virtually every turn we make (unless we are carving pure arc to arc turns) will include some degree of rotation in the blend of steering mechanisms. It's really not pointless.
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Does anyone else think we have moved somewhat away from the original question?
"What is the easiest and simplest way to teach...?"
press, lean, rotate they all do very similar jobs, increase friction on the left you will go right... easy. If you're not in a rush, try it a few ways, stick to the one your student finds easiest then once they can do it, you can work on the fun bit of skiing "how to not do it"
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
heidiky wrote:
There is a blend of movements during a turn, whether it is a wedge turn or a dynamic parallel turn. It's just that some systems teach one movement pattern more than others. I don't think rob@rar, meant teach wedge turning by solely using rotary movements of the leg, but that is what he would choose to teach first. So would I really!! It's such an important skill and if we can teach it in the early lessons, the client will have better skills in the long term.
Yes, there is certainly a blend of movements in every turn we do, but the OP asked for a simple way to teach a plough turn. I think for a new skier who has never made a plough turn before it is more than enough to ask them to change direction and link turns - adding extra body movement just gives them yet more stuff to think about, so I like to keep things simple. Asking the student to keep their skis in a plough shape and point them in the direction they want to turn (or to follow somebody who is making good turns) is about as simple as it gets. I'm well aware that there is a lot of other stuff going on, but until they are able to make controlled linked turns I can't see there is much value in complicating matters. Once they are able to make linked turns, which might take just one short run, I would then focus on making extension and flexion movements with the legs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
flangesax wrote:
...
Alpiine Basic Position (in traverse position on ski edges.)
...
Just out of interest, does this progression involve teaching students to traverse across a slope between turns? So there is a straight line phase across the piste before the next turn starts?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
yup
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
dulcamara, thanks. At some point you'd need to encourage students to stop traversing and just link their turns?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
heidiky wrote:
Wayne, I would be reluctant to teach kids to use that method as it will encourage upper body rotation (looking up at inside/high hand).
Yeah, you're probably right, wad-do-I-no
Oh well, got a 2 and a half year old (my god daughter) to introduce to skiing next week (she only started to walk last year) in the Manchester fridge. I was going to ask her to point her skis at me and slide down. If she can do this I was going to ask her to play at being an airplane following me (yep everyone would have laughed at me, but hey-ho). But you're right; I'll have to keep in mind that she may develop upper body rotation.
Oh and she has the best skis ever - bright pink with my-little-pony printed on em (I want a pair for me)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the past (?) I have found that if you tell very young kids to point their arm down to turn, then they tend to lean their head over to that side. By telling them to look up at their higher hand (inside the turn) they don’t.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 20-09-12 11:24; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Rob,
Yeah, though it's not really in the book, Austrians like a lot of traverse stop, traverse slide, 1 turn stuff (get shouted at a lot for not doing enough of it) ... Linking the turns is generally integrated when you start skiing in a snake and they're staying in your tracks.
The result (and weakness) for the Austrian way is a lot of across, across, across, run out of piste, PANIC, reverse, swear, call instructor. though this may be more Marhofen related due to the quite imprssive lack of flat wide slopes[/quote]
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
dulcamara, - brings back memories of me learning in Soll in the 80's
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Must be why that's all I can still do
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Travers then turn
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 20-09-12 11:28; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
dulcamara, thanks, thats very interesting.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Personally, I teach people to rotate their legs (and skis), use this skill to create rotational separation (not just "lean over the outside ski, bending sideways creating a weak position) and blending in some vertical movements in the legs to glue it all together.
Quote:
So the 'ability to carve' is not the secret extra bit the UK skiers all seem to build up to learn or progress to. The basic position is taught as soon as possible and integrated fully between each plough turn (with inside ski sliding into position at the end of each turn).
I didn't say you need to teach them to carve, I said if you only pressure the ski that that is what you can expect. In fact, the only place I've seen beginners being taught to carve their outside ski (miserably) was Austria. You can't influence the arc as well without rotational movements at lower levels. The "basic position" idea is the same all over. I would hope nobody teaches turning without first the skier being in a position that will enable them to do so.
My ideal progression would consist of:
Successful gliding wedge through rotational movements of the legs.
Turning both feet at the same time (point skis in desired direction of travel) Keeping a stable upper body, legs turning underneath. Small direction changes.
Increasing size of turns.
As we move to steeper terrain, gradually increasing the vertical movement.
Successful leg rotary skills will enable inside ski steering as apposed to 'sliding in'
rob@rar, I wouldn't teach a traverse between turns, traversing is what you do to get across something not down it
heidiky, agree with all of that. I don't teach complete beginners that often, but when I see people who are really struggling to get the hang of plough turning it's often because they have their outside ski on a clean edge and have very little control of turn shape or speed. They sort of carve their way out of the 2nd half of the turn, frequently losing control because the ski accelerates away from them. The cause of this is often because their plough is too wide, or they push their outside ski away from them too far, or they put so much pressure on the outside ski that they can't twist/skid it around the turn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I don't profess any teaching skill and might be totally out of order as I think being first taught to snow plough didn't do me any favours. They first tried to teach me to snowplough but at my age my legs refuse to conform to that geometry and I never got the hang of it properly. It did left a legacy difficult to unlearn trying to go parallel. I presume you are taught first to plough to build confidence as it gives a stable base to avoid falling and it requires no co-ordination skills. We shepherded a girl on her first week, she started out on snowblades, avoided the snowplough stage and was on skis, skiing parallel by the end of the week but maybe she was a natural.
The traverse lasts about 3m in between turns. So the body is only is the alpine basic position for a tincy time in between the extensions etc...
So it should be a relatively tight snake.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wayne, awesome! getting her started young
aeroplanes is a good one to use, just in moderation. it does encourage kids to get onto the outside ski more but doing it too much I find gets them twisted.
kids get all the best graphics, even seen some hello kitty and spiderman skis!!!
After all it is free
After all it is free
flangesax wrote:
The traverse lasts about 3m in between turns.
Thanks, what is for reason for having the traverse, even a short one?
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kevindonkleywood wrote:
Snowy23,
The answer depends on the type of learner you have, their physical development and age.
Before you can do anything with a plough turn you need to make sure that the basics of balance and stance are in place. Then they need to be able to do a good straight plough glide and show the ability to rotate the skis into and out of the plough shape. If these are not in place there is no point moving to plough turning.
Hovever
It does not matter how simple you think you are making instructions, sometimes a learner actually needs to be able to 'feel' what they need to do. One way to cut away all the talk is (If you are willing to get down on you hands and knees) is by giving the learner a couple of runs where you hold their tips and rotate the skis for them to give them a feel for the movements that they need to make. start with a small wiggle and your way up to bigger turns. Its hard work but in a group where one or two are failing to grasp the verbal or visual instruction you can see the 'click' as they suddenly get what they are supposed to be doing because they can feel the movement patern.
You can then ramp up the size of the turns and speed by holding their tips and skiing backward.
The instructor who taught me specialised in disabled instruction - he taught a lot of blind skiers, so taught a lot by feel.
he had me hold my poles up in front of me - then he snowplowed backwards holding the other end of my poles. Worked great as my "job" was to watch those poles and make them match at my end. So if one of his dipped - so did mine(see the aeroplane in post up above kevindonkleywood). I had a "safety" of him in front to stop me running away.(not really needed but... psychologically... helped a heap) I had something to copy that made more sense to me. I got to feel the movement. I had constant feedback. I had no choice but to match turn shape(unless I let go of the poles). I also had a physical barrier to seeing the WHOLE slope, and it was not easy to look at my skis either. So I was watching his face and over his shoulder to look for traffic for him.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
The other 'steering' consideration is the surface you are teaching on. Rotation is probably going to be harder for most if it's a plastic slope.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. You can see it in a good demo if you look at the tips of the skis the turning (outside) ski will 'tuck in' slightly behind the tip of the other ski.
- brings back memories of me learning in Soll in the 80's
