 Poster: A snowHead
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Back in March we booked a group holiday for 26 to Austria but are now told the flight can't take the skis of our 18 folks who want to take their own... It seems we should have been told but weren't... and all we're offered is a 2 for 1 ski hire offer on mid range skis so around £55 each. It's said that we'll be able to upgrade to better skis in resort for around £20 but I'm not too confident about that. The reason we're going to St Anton is to ski the good and off piste stuff and with our good skis so are being well and truly let down. It's a costly disappointment and a real worry what skis well end up with… ARGHHH
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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With that many skis it ought to be possible to have them shipped, would suggest maybe finding out cost of doing so there and back and seeing if Inghams will cover the cost
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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paulmags, Post or courier them to the accommodation before you go and post them home afterwards.
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Yeah there was a company I saw on here that would pick the skis up from the uk and deliver to the resort for not much more than it would cost to take on the flight. Can't remember the name tho, sorry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Don't forget also that ski hire in St Anton is extremely expensive. I wouldn't rely on an upgrade being that cheap.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
It's said that we'll be able to upgrade to better skis in resort for around £20 but I'm not too confident about that
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paulmags, what a bummer. I wouldn't be too confident either - renting skis in St Anton costs a fortune! Other options for getting your own there sound a better idea, unless you can advance book exactly what you want at a reasonable cost.
What a pain!
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Breach of contract from Inghams? Make serious noises about a total refund and make it their problem to sort out as they won't want to see 26 heads walk away. As above rentals in St Anton are eyewatering due to local cartel behaviour and a bit of a needle in a haystack job in finding the good stuff. I'd actually call BS on the claim they can't take all the skis unless you're flying on a turbo prop, I doubt the plane's full yet - just Inghams don't want to extend their quota.
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Courier them as above and charge Inghams. You're in a strong position with that size of booking team. I never go with TO for reasons like this, treat their guests poorly IMO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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is the issue with the airline rather than inghams? Some airlines state in their policy that they will only guarantee to take so many sets of skis per flight - that is probably what is causing you grief - although clearly inghams should point this out in their literature.
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Flybe? (on an Embraer or other relatively dinky plane)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's the bloody austrian weekend skiiers that drive the price up in StA - I've stopped going becasue the cost.
I would be very careful about taking unilateral action without a very careful read of your contract. If they never committed to carry your ski's in writing you will have a very, very weak case. If they did then, I would suggest you get Inghams to negotiate local hire of skis for you at a pre-agreed price and to agree the make/model/lengths/binding sizes IN WRITING well before you leave these shores . Inghams will have the clout to neotiate group discounts OR be able to ship in from elsewhere in Austria. This keeps the onus to supply with them (free wax included) and prevents your ski's getting lost/damaged in transit.
Don't assume Inghams will cover your actions if you don't clear it with them first. Some of the options suggested above run into the £100's and Inghams may not be liable to cover such a cost even if they did agree to carry your skis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Edge and Wax do a fed-ex option on their servicing. Maybe give them a call and get your skis serviced and then shipped straight out to St Anton. You'd still have to arrange to get them home, tho, but I'm sure something could be worked out
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There is a company that ships your skis out for you, especially if you have a group in one area and they can collect a bunch of them from one place - no idea what they were called, but several people had used them on the EoSB this year and all seemed happy.
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You know it makes sense.
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I would also get the standard costs for shipping skis with the airline, and ask the TO to meet the cost of any additional money required to get them shipped out there, after all you will have a receipt to forward to them to prove it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Inghams standard terms for ski holidays:
"Baggage allowances in accordance with airline policy. This varies from 15kg up to 20kg on charter airlines and 1 piece of 23kg on all our scheduled carriers to Europe and USA/Canada. Allowance varies on low cost scheduled airlines. Full details can be found in your travel documents."
If it did not say in your travel documents that transport of sports equipment was included then it will be down to the specific airline policy but I doubt with a package holiday that this will be included. Check the additional transport cost with the relevant airline and decide accordingly. With that many pairs of ski's I suspect that courier might be the best option BUT really look at the courier insurance terms/your holiday insurance cover to see if it covers rental costs for delay/loss (I got robbed once and the insurance company refused to cover the cost of ski hire). If you do go the courier route take pictures of the ski's and ensure everyone has the purchase paperwork for them (that's another way insurance companies weasel out of paying).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue, A rep I was talking to said it wasn't about dumb tourists but a total mismatch in bargaining power - all the ski shops in St Anton are in the hands of 3 families who curiously enough see no merit in price competition even to the extent of e.g. not showing any real generosity in bulk contracts with TOs. Speculation that the likes of a Ski Republic would be run out of town in short order or not even get a lease on a property. Of course TOs ultimately don't care that much - if they did they'd try to run their own rental fleet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, Still comes down to the punters "accepting the situation because it is St Anton". Certainly not down to the day trippers like myself as RattytheSnowRat suggested as we have taken our bargaining power elsewhere! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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paulmags, with that size group this is probably not an easy question, but is this not grounds for cancellation? I mean, surely they are marketing it as a ski holiday... I couldn't imagine the same situation with a golfing holiday?
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What are they going to do? Not go skiing as a point of principle? Accept it with a sour taste in their mouth then take their own skis next time then run into the problem the OP identifies? Most people in my chalet had a moan about it last year but they accepted it was just a "tax" on their choosing St Anton. They certainly weren't dumb. I'd say it's no set of customers' fault except the "money no object" crowd regardless of nationality & to be honest the premium probably pales into insignificance with the amount the average punter spends on jaegerbombs etc.
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| Quote: |
It's the bloody austrian weekend skiiers that drive the price up in StA
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RattytheSnowRat,  They've every right to go, and its because its so accessible with great transport links coupled with the excellent snow record, quality of skiing plus investment in lifts and snowsure pistes is what attracts them, I've never noticed it being more expensive to ski at weekends than Monday to Friday! OK it isnt cheap but I'd rather pay for the off-piste opportunities than be stuck in a low lying resort with poor snow and terrain simply because its cheaper.............you pays your money and takes your chance.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| you pays your money... |
exactly. Cost of ski hire is hardly a major issue in the overall scheme of things. The power base of St Anton know they have a special place with relatively limited beds (compared to some French carbuncle for example) so who wouldn't cash in eh?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, Exactly
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We tend to rent a self-catering apartment in Mayrhofen, though it does come with breakfast if desired. We ship our skis in advance in a SportTube (SnowBoardTube) with GLS, they base the fee on dimensional size rather than weight. Ireland to Austria was 42.00 EUR I was able to nearly get all our outerwear in it too. As that was for 2 people, it works out less expensive than ski carriage charges for 2 when flying.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, If you were replying to me, my intention was to suggest cancelling with whoever they are with and rebooking with some one sensible....
Ski holiday without my skis? How dumb is that? Especially if you are UK based with limited opportunity to use your skis.
I would also be interested to know if pax on the same flight to other resorts were allowed to take skis.
Also, also, a bit of cunning packing as skis don't weigh 23kg, could result in, "are those skis sir?", " why no, not at all, I always fold my underwear that way!".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sue - I am not talking about the locals, StA has a very high proportion of Austrian skiiers that come for the weekend from Austrian towns and cities because of the good rail link (nod to Markymark29), that's just a fact. Since they are only there for Friday night/Sat/Sunday it distorts the pricing for those people who are there for one or two weeks since the weekenders are quite happy to pay a higher ski/boot rental day rate and also splash out a bit more for food and drink. As to your value argument - have you ever been to Lech/Zurs, StA's upmarket suburbs??? To paraphrase Mony Python: value don't enter into it - beautiful plumage. I also agree with fatbob - it is a cartel and I know that various attempts to break it have been politically snuffed out. The ski school is a prime example. I don't like the atmosphere there any more either (but that's a personal thing) it's changed a lot since the 80's - the level of greed is much more evident now.
Markymark29 - they can't charge less in the week, then the weekenders would sus they were getting ripped.
Look, I accept free market economics to a degree BUT anywhere operating a protected local cartel is not capitalist, it's a hidden feudal system. So next time you arrive there, doff your cap.
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| Quote: |
they have a special place with relatively limited beds (compared to some French carbuncle for example) so who wouldn't cash in eh?
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there always has to be someone, doesn't there? I suppose it's St Anton's limited number of beds which means the slopes are always so quiet? And those "French carbuncles" don't seem to have any shortage of punters prepared to pay silly prices for a beer. Who wouldn't cash in, eh?
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You know it makes sense.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Sue - I am not talking about the locals, StA has a very high proportion of Austrian skiiers that come for the weekend from Austrian towns and cities because of the good rail link (nod to Markymark29), that's just a fact. Since they are only there for Friday night/Sat/Sunday it distorts the pricing for those people who are there for one or two weeks since the weekenders are quite happy to pay a higher ski/boot rental day rate and also splash out a bit more for food and drink. As to your value argument - have you ever been to Lech/Zurs, StA's upmarket suburbs??? To paraphrase Mony Python: value don't enter into it - beautiful plumage. I also agree with fatbob - it is a cartel and I know that various attempts to break it have been politically snuffed out. The ski school is a prime example. I don't like the atmosphere there any more either (but that's a personal thing) it's changed a lot since the 80's - the level of greed is much more evident now.
Markymark29 - they can't charge less in the week, then the weekenders would sus they were getting ripped.
Look, I accept free market economics to a degree BUT anywhere operating a protected local cartel is not capitalist, it's a hidden feudal system. So next time you arrive there, doff your cap. |
Nope, the Austrian/German/Dutch weekend skiers have their own kit, they ski to regularly for hiring to be worthwhile. Just chuck the skis in the car/train and check into a pension for the weekend.
The price of kit hire in St Anton is solely down to the cartel behaviour of the 'Anton Mafia.' They get away with it as people will always want to go to the Arlberg, mostly punters won't bother to go down the valley to get cheaper kit, and because they won't let anyone new in to undercut their prices.
OP, you're a group of 26, that equals considering bargaining power. Come down hard on them 'tilt hey fix it, or go with someone who can (for those numbers other companies WILL sort you out).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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under a new name,
The problem you might have about arguing any kind of term due to the nature of the contract is that Inghams make a point of offering an all-inclusive deal that has a ski package included. I assume you will argue 'ah ha, but that is precisely what we did not want because we have our own skis' but Inghams can simply point out that you did not take their offer that dealt with such issues and thought you were dealing with the matter yourself. Also given the number of locals more than happy to scalp you for ski packages, the 'impossibility' or 'implied term' argument you are staggerring towards does not hold up (c.f. 'Austrian weekenders' argument' above). The law has a thing about 'value' vs 'substance' judgements (e.g. 'peppercorn' rents) so relative cost defences rarely work except for mitigation arguments. I'd also check the Inghams cancellation charge vs ski carriage cost before you do anything.
Looking at cost comparisons on http://www.ski-rental.co.uk/booking/catalog/ - it does look as though the upgrade cost to 'prestige' is about £20 for StA. I would look at getting that locked down by Inghams now under the threat of heading to a competitor or doing it yourself with their supplier. Get it in writing.
From my POV, I'd pay + £20 to not lug around skis and to not have to wax/edge them for a season. Also there's the breakage issue ... In the circumstances £75 is bit of a bargain actually if you can nail it down. You can still take your boots which is, lets face it, the most important thing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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RattytheSnowRat, I have no dog in the game (hah! Used that twice on here today, how sad am I?) - just all seems really weird to me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not that its any help to paulmags, but the flight Edinburgh to Innsbruck is with Austrian Arrows or one of their companies
The number of skis they will carry is limited
We have used this flight a few times and there are often folk who have not been able to book their skis on the flight
Its also 18kg baggage allowance 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Must be cheaper to ship 18 sets of skis there and back.
At Easyjet rates of £50 return that is £900 ...... bet you can ship for less thean half that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, No I was replying to Sue. I agree with you - normally TOs are only to happy to charge you an extra charge for ski carriage so if they've done so I'd say it's their problem. Trouble is TOs generally think all punters are numpties and that ski hire is exactly equivalent to your own skis. It might be if you've no discernment but its a right PITA to find a grown up ski in a man size length in most resorts. I still bet that the plane is nowhere near sold out yet, Inghams just need to pull their finger out and get over their "computer says no" problem.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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RattytheSnowRat, People who can ski every weekend and their days off and holidays, plus buy their season passes, all have their own gear! Try and accept a reality FFS. Even many of the German, Dutch and Scandinavians who drive down for their annual holiday often have their own kit.
We do not need to pay the Stanton Mafia anything as we can get all our gear at reasonable prices down in the valleys or towns we live in. How often do you have to be told before you accept that as a fact. It is the TOs who can't be arsed to negotiate or bring in their own kit, plus loads of knobhead foreigners who "do" St Anton just to appear gnarly. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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When I've been to St Anton it seemed to be the knobhead Brits, Scandis, Yanks, Romanians, Aussies, Cloggies etc getting after more off piste than the bum clenching Austrians and Krauts.
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Paulmags,
I use these guys, used them three times, works well as an economy package, they send the box to your address in the Uk, collect and deliver to accomodation in resort. Than when you've finished collect from your accomodation adress and deliver back to your Uk address(s).
Jamie who runs the company is very helpful.
Takes a massive amount of stress out of the who traveling with skis thing.
http://www.skicarriage.co.uk/
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paulmags, i'd be interested to hear what you do when everything calms down.
I can't think of anything more annoying and to be frank I can't understand why anyone would want to use Inghams for a ski holiday, I'm sure you won't again. The major TO's all seem to be pants and it appears Inghams is now trying to beat Crystal in the race to the bottom. None of them give a hoot about the skiing as they are just glorified coach companies which see their job as getting you from A to B.
We have a powerful forum here and we should tell these TO's enough is enough. Skiing is a niche market, a big one, but all the same a specialist market. I will now add Inghams to the list of companies I would never use unless they buck their ideas up and provide an appropriate service to market. I'm not asking for anything for free, just an awareness of their customers needs.
That is why it is so flipping ridiculous, they honestly believe that an offer of cheap hire is the same as taking your own boards that you have waxed, prepped and picked for the occasion. There are't many things you actually need on a skiing holiday, I mean we never need half the clothes we usually pack, but a pair a skis are really useful and an integral part of the experience.
Given their level of understanding of the sport I'm half expecting to hear they suggested packing a pair of snowblades inside your luggage instead.
SH's I suggest we rise up and demand a better service, let's boycott these charlatans or all have a DIY year!!
Together we can make a change, for our sport, for our children, for the better. 
ps - Iiiiiiiiiitttttttts Snowing!!!!!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| Look, I accept free market economics to a degree BUT anywhere operating a protected local cartel is not capitalist, it's a hidden feudal system. So next time you arrive there, doff your cap. |
Anyone fancy a ski lesson – about an hour should be OK to hone up those skills.
Times are hard so let’s see who is the cheapest
http://www.scuolasci5laghi.it/en-prezzi.htm
http://www.scuolascicampiglio.com/en/rates1.html
http://www.scuolasciadamellobrenta.it/en/prices.asp
http://www.italianskiacademy.com/lang/IT/pagine/dettaglio/menu_principale,1/prices,3.html
http://www.scuolascirainalter.it/ita/prezzi.htm
http://www.scuolascidolomiticampiglio.it/listini/scuolasci.html
http://www.noleggiodesalpes.it/scuola/listino.html
Oh, that’s unusual, they all charge (exactly) the same.
Life's like that (everywhere) 
But there is one notable exception to the rule 
Yep! you can book with us for a whole €1 cheaper (maybe I'm not worth the extra €1 )
http://www.scuolascifolgarida.com/ita/tariffe-lezioni-private.asp
| Mt wrote: |
| paulmagsTogether we can make a change, for our sport, for our children, for the better. |
No you can't - well not round our way at least
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Mt,
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| We have a powerful forum here and we should tell these TO's enough is enough. Skiing is a niche market, a big one, but all the same a specialist market. I will now add Inghams to the list of companies I would never use unless they buck their ideas up and provide an appropriate service to market. I'm not asking for anything for free, just an awareness of their customers needs. |
I doubt if any of the TO's are quaking in their ski-boots. HOWEVER>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's a probable need for an ongoing thread based on SnowHeads' experiences of TO's, both good and bad news that ranks TO's out of 100 rather like Power ranks cars, or Parker ranks wine. (Or was that "whine")
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