As the sea ice retreats in summer the ocean warms up (to 7C in 2011) and this warms the seabed too. The continental shelves of the Arctic are composed of offshore permafrost, frozen sediment left over from the last ice age. As the water warms the permafrost melts and releases huge quantities of trapped methane, a very powerful greenhouse gas so this will give a big boost to global warming.
They have known about likely future release of methane from permafrost (and its consequences) for many years. Only the time-scale varies. Not heard of it specifically in terms of the sea bed before so not sure if this was part of what was previously talked about or not.
Normally the "official" scientific view has been an average of the various estimates which have themselves tended to be conservative, in case they were accused of scare-mongering. Not surprisingly, perhaps, they actual effects had been proceeding faster than the previous official predicted ones.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 17-09-12 17:27; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
It's all doom and gloom. The Sunday Times were predicting disaster due to the the 'warming effect' of gases used to replace CFC aerosols.
Just reading the quote:
Quote:
frozen sediment left over from the last ice age
I wonder how the methane got trapped during the last ice age ?
snowball, I've seen articles on methane released from the sea bed, a few year ago maybe.
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AndAnotherThing.., General breakdown of plant remains I think, like you normally get in the soil. You find the gas in coal mines for example, and released from bogs and rubbish dumps (and cows' backsides).
After all it is free
After all it is free
There are vast amounts of methane hydrates in sea floor sediments in the arctic ocean. If the sea warms enough this will be released, this has happened before in the past, if it's released it will cause huge climatic disruption. Whether this will happen or not only time will tell, it's far too late for tinkering around with the odd wind turbine. The die has already been cast we'll either learn to cope with the changes or we wont.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 17-09-12 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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HutToHut wrote:
exhibit A : summer
Ice won't just melt into the sea; you'll get a good bit of evaporation and sublimation too. All that water vapour has to go somewhere; excess of melting ice in the arctic implies extra rain and snow elsewhere in the northern hemisphere.
The world's been a lot warmer and wetter in the past but alas paleoclimatologists don't seem to have much to say about skiing conditions...
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The thing about Global Warming is that it has to be Global.
The trouble is that for the last decade+ there is zero evidence for a GLOBAL temperature rise.
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Interestingly more methane escapes through the cows mouth than anywhere elsesnowball,
As I understand it’s the ice cap, ie the amount of ice covering the sea which keeps the sea temperature cool by reflecting sunlight back, as soon as the ice melts it allows the sea to warm up. If the ice then fails to freeze again in the same volumes that was melted the decline is inexorable, eventually allowing the permafrost to melt and the release of the methane. There's nothing new here, I read about this ten years or more. Just Google the retreat of glaciers across the world for more evidence that temperatures are rising. This is a period of climate change no doubt about it but when D-Day comes what will it be too hot, too cold, dark due to a few volcanoes erupting simultaneously across the globe or a meteor strike. Either way I hope I am not about to witness it!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Scientists , grow beards to save the risk of cutting themselves.
No one will be fined or fired when they are wrong.
I predict: one day there will be no humans, planet earth will be fine. The end.
Global warming changes our lifestyles, not the planet's. If it# existed. #global warming
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Other milestones, the Greenland ice sheet melt this year was off the scale and parts of the glaciers here in Iceland that have been ice covered for all of recorded history have melted for the first time.
Remember whilst you guys were having a poo-poo summer elsewhere in the world including here was off the scale.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowball wrote:
AndAnotherThing.., General breakdown of plant remains I think,
That's what they must be implying.....
but they are talking about stuff "left over by the last ice age". If everything was already frozen I'd imagine there would have been minimal plant growth up there in the North during the last ice age?
It would make more sense id they are implying that the remains are from the previous interglacial periods, but then that suggests that it was warm enough for stuff to grow there.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This article, whilst not necessarily incorrect, is just speculation by a single scientist. Speaking as a scientist, this sort of speculation, whilst useful in the context of discussion with other like-minded scientists, does nothing but terrify the wider population in the context of the british media. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making the general public aware of current scientific research, but some articles just aren't helpful.
There are plenty more worrying threats to humanity, which have a far larger evidence base and don't get that much press. What is probably more alarming, for example, is the diminishing usefulness of antibiotics to treat infections. Very few antibiotics are being developed and the bugs keep evolving to become resistant to our current treatments.
But that's my science.......and probably doesn't impact the amount of pow pow falling from the sky.
Filthyphil30k, Did you know that not all scientists grow beards? Some are women, for example.
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Tordi wrote:
Filthyphil30k, Did you know that not all scientists grow beards? Some are women, for example.
Apart from the global warming side of things, the release of methane from seabed methane clathrates has been put forward as a theory to explain the incidence of unexplained ship sinkings in certain areas. Imagine a ship on the surface of the ocean. It stays afloat because the amount of water it displaces is equal to its own weight (Archimedes and all that). Now suppose that the methane clathrate on the seabed releases a burp of methane. Remember that it's released as gas at the large underwater pressure of the seabed, as the bubbles rise and the surrounding sea pressure decreases the volume of the gas will expand greatly. When it reaches the surface the ship is now sitting on a mixture of sea water and gas, is no longer buoyant and promptly sinks!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 18-09-12 18:45; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
One thing I spotted a couple of days ago after looking into the weather effects as some say this melt of the Arctic will produce much colder winters here in the UK and Northern Europe
The issue of mass sea bed methane release has already been confirmed by Russian research vessels!!
They is also a group of proffs based not far from me in Cambridge who funny enough predicted this would happen back in March I am sure they are not gloating but its a little frightening! http://www.ameg.me/
I see that the guy in Guardian is the same as the AMEG group??
livetoski, They seem quite vocal calling for active intervention:
Quote:
Governments must adopt a plan of action to cool the Arctic, halt the retreat of the Arctic sea ice and slow the release of methane. A variety of means of cooling the Arctic are available, some of which may be classed as geoengineering.
Suggest rather than fuss you look at some proper websites and note that the antarctic ice sheet is at record levels and adding the antarctic and arctic together is higher than the norm. The place to look for the real facts is "Watts up with That" website sea ice pages.
Also worth noting that Shell have had to give up their arctic ice drilling programme this summer for a number of reasons including unexpected ice!
Don't panic, Captain "Davidof" from Corporal "Countryman"!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
countryman,
Quote:
Also worth noting that Shell have had to give up their arctic ice drilling programme this summer for a number of reasons including unexpected ice!
I saw that too, however wasn't that down to the fact that in the Arctic there was more ice breaking off therefore more icebergs further south than usual?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
It would make more sense id they are implying that the remains are from the previous interglacial periods, but then that suggests that it was warm enough for stuff to grow there.
Yes, of course: it was.
Quote:
Location: Leeds, UK
This article, whilst not necessarily incorrect, is just speculation by a single scientist.
No, release of methane with melting of permafrost has widely believed by scientists for at least a decade.
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I think it's time to bring back 'Doomwatch'
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Richard_Sideways,
Quote:
'Doomwatch'
wow thats going back a bit, loved the plastic eating virus episode
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If they know the methane is there and they have some time I wonder if there isn't a way of containing it in the future rather than just letting it escape. It could then be burned for heating rather than other fossil fuels.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, from what I can gather, unlike natural gas and or crude oil, which occurs in discrete (tappable) pockets, the methane hydrate crystals are so widely dispersed that to capture it, you would need to cap the entire Arctic ocean and the archipelago surrounding it with a very large funnel, pretty much down as far as the Arctic circle.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We're beset on all sides by bubbling tundra farts, cosmic rays, fatties gorging themselves on ratmeat, dirty bombs, pandemics, peak oil, global warming, global cooling, buckyballs, grey goo and poison monkeys.
Now is the ideal time for Doomwatch to come back - commissioning editors: TAKE NOTE!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
moffatross, so what's the problem?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Richard_Sideways, all of the above as you said, but hey your missing the ZOMBIES of the list
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meh wrote:
parts of the glaciers here in Iceland that have been ice covered for all of recorded history have melted for the first time.
Can you supply the evidence for that, please?
This paper suggests the Icelandic climate and icecaps are naturally extremely dynamic:
…a dynamic late Holocene climate with abrupt and large-scale changes in ice-cap size and landscape stability. A first-order trend toward cooler summers and ice-cap expansion is punctuated by notable periods of rapid ice cap growth and/or landscape instability at ca 1000 BC, 600 BC, 550 AD and 1250 AD. The largest perturbation began ca 1250 AD, signaling the onset of the Little Ice Age and the termination of three centuries of relative warmth during Medieval times. Consistent deposition of ice-rafted debris in Hvítárvatn is restricted to the last 250 years, demonstrating that Langjökull only advanced into Hvítárvatn during the coldest centuries of the Little Ice Age, beginning in the mid eighteenth century. This advance represents the glacial maximum for at least the last 3 ka, and likely since regional deglaciation 10 ka.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
livetoski, was keeping that for season 2, or maybe the christmas special...
(Undead zoms need not apply, only the bleeding eyes ravening plague victim kind please - the premise of Doomwatch was that all the predicaments were based in hard science and had the potential to occur)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
meh, nothing in the English article comparing with recent climatic and geologic history (since settlement began or previous). Of course, I don't know about the stuff on the Icelandic blog. From the peer-reviewed paper I quoted, it seems Iceland is recovering from the severities of the Little Ice Age and that conditions were much more benign before that, during the Medieval Warm Period when Iceland was settled. If I remember my (scant) Icelandic history, the population was devastated during the transition to the cooler LIA.
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laundryman, the population was devastated by a volcanic eruption...
The Icelandic article is just pointing out that this is the first time the peak mentioned has melted in recorded history (since settlement). I'm not sure what your point is with the paper since it doesn't mention anything about the historic coverage of Snæfellsjökull. If it's that the climate in Iceland has changed over the course of several thousand years... well duh. My only reason for mentioning that above was as a counter to the stupid "we had a gloomy summer so there ain't climate change" style comments because whilst the UK was getting rained on a lot of other places had record temperatures and summers.
Will people stop telling me that the actic ice melt will raise sea levels, because my primary school teacher taught me about Archimedes. Althought it was a long time ago, I do belive it still holds true! Furthermore pictures of chunks of ice falling into the sea from the ends of glaciers is not helpful, as that is what glaciers do. Rant over (for today).
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Dypcdiver, well.... technically fresh water does displace slightly differently than saline water, so melt water changes the overall salinity of the ocean and thus makes it less bouyant, so anything being supported by it (like ice) sits that wee bit lower, raising the total level of the whole...
And ice breaking away from a grounded ice sheet will technically raise the sea level by whatever the volume of the new submerged portion of the ice is.
...sorry.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Richard_Sideways,
Quote:
technically fresh water does displace slightly differently than saline water, so melt water changes the overall salinity of the ocean and thus makes it less buoyant, so anything being supported by it (like ice) sits that wee bit lower, raising the total level of the whole...
But the sea ice in the Arctic Ocean is sea based not land based, so I guess its mostly saline melt, however the melt in Greenland this summer will as its landed based.
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Dypcdiver, Arctic Ice melt contributed about 1.6% to the total sea level rise in this paper (so not very much):
It's the ice melting on land that we should be more worried about to which the melting of the sea ice could be a second order contributor thanks to the release of methane.
Oddly though you were the first person to mention sea level rise in the thread so obviously didn't bother to read the article it pertains to.
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Sea ice is only about a third as salty as sea water, most of the salt is lost during ice formation so the melt is closer to fresh water. There are areas where the ice is thick enough to reach the sea bed, so like-for-like displacement isn't completely accurate.
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