Videos for practicing analysis of skiers

A snowHead

I'm working towards my L2 qualification, and one of the bits I'd like more practice at is watching a skier, analysing their performance, and coming up with ways to help them improve.

Most of the people I currently teach are beginners, so I get plenty of practice at that end of the spectrum. And I can get some exposure to more advanced skiers through instructor training sessions at the club where we can analyse each other, but it would be nice to broaden this out a bit.

Seeing Inside Out's excellent new videos for assessing a skier's level (http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=89486) made me think that it should be possible to do this using videos rather than physically getting to a slope. It won't be as easy as in person, but anything is better than nothing.

Rather than re-inventing the wheel I was wondering if anyone else has gone through this before and got either a bunch of links to videos on youtube or videos of their own clients that they're able to share - rather like the clips that make up the Inside Out videos, but ideally slightly longer (you only get a few seconds of each skier there) and without the text overlay. I can also go back through snowheads posts where people have asked for critique of their skiing. The videos need to be of good enough quality that you can see the skier rather than a dot in the distance (which is where a lot of stuff on youtube fails).

Once I've got a list I plan to analyse them and get my coach to do likewise before we compare notes.

Any suggestions or advice very gratefully received.

Cheers!

A snowHead

epicski used to have lots of people posting up vids for "motion analysis". Warning some of the threads get pretty nerdy at times and you may question your desir eto want to be a ski instructor.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

kieranm, movement analysis is difficult to do if you dont know what the task was set or the snow conditions... to be honest you would be better off taking some of your own footage where you work of different skiers doing different tasks rather than random footage of people you havent seen ski yourself..

i agree with fatbob the epic discussions are nerdy to the extreme and i would add that focussing on individual frames is pointless unless you are trying to make a point with a client.. video review is just another tool to get people to learn how to ski better, some are more visual learners and it can be very valuable is done correctly in a guided discovery way as opposed to making points..

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kieranm, Best way is to work with several coaches so you ask what they see. Watching a piece of video without knowing what the skier was trying to do may lead you up the wrong path. Assuming you are teaching skiing up to linked snowploughs/plough parallel, you already have most of what you need -IMV skiing does not change that much between plough and parrallel (other than the parrallel bit Laughing

)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

agree fully with ski's comments and forgot to add that at L2 you wont be expected to do video review or much on fault analysis by memory that really only came in occassionaly at the L3 teach course but almost daily on the L4 teach ... i would suggest concentrating on watching what the skis are doing and use the review to determine what the key area to be improved is.. most people tend to get way to analytical when doing MA..

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skimottaret and ski - thanks for the advice, and thanks fatbob for the pointer to epicski, I'll look through what there is there and avoid the discussion.

I'm not really trying to do this instead of going to the slope in person, but as well as. At this time of year there are relatively few skiers, and to do it in person needs (i) a skier; (ii) me; and (iii) a coach to all be there at the same time; with (iv) nothing better to do. This means it just doesn't happen very often. Taking some of my own footage would be a good idea as it reduces the set of people who all need to be there at the same time.

ski: yes, working with several coaches and other instructors is definitely a good idea - we all see things differently or have different ways of approaching a problem.

skimottaret: watching the skis is also good advice, and what I try and do, and everything usually comes down to posture. I'd just like to practice this more without having to spend more time than I already do driving to/from the slope.

So I still think it would be a useful resource - another thing that could be practiced away from the slope - to complement rather than replace other things. I hope that explains more about why I want to do this.

The L2 I'm working towards is the SSE L2 rather than BASI and it does include fault analysis (though not video), but I'm currently thinking I'll also try and do the BASI L2 next year to broaden my base a little and get a different perspective.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kieranm, be interested to hear what the SSE 2 course is like and would make a nice post comparing and contrasting it with the BASI L2 should you do that one as well. Bon Chance

After all it is free

kieranm, Good luck BTW !

Thanks guys! It's all fun whether pass or fail.

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kieranm, I went through a similar process when doing my SSE stuff a while ago. Your coach may be able to provide a 'framework' to help with the analysis but in simple terms it goes:

What is happening.
Why's is it happening.
What to do.

For each clip you may have several 'whats' and associated 'whys' and the judgment is then to focus on the one thing that's going to make the most difference to the client.

The focus doesn't always have to focus on a 'fault' to correct, but can are also be a 'strength' you can improve on.

When I was doing mine you tube wasn't so big, so I videoed sessions at our local slope. The upside is you have a reasonable idea of what they are trying to do, the downside is that these days there will be forms to complete.

Good luck and let us know how you go on.

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I'm surprised that such a set of videos hasn't already been gathered together. I'll see what I can do and make available so others don't have to duplicate the effort.

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kieranm, This part if the forum has quite a few - I recall last Summer (or the Summer before) there were a couple of threads for this. A search for 'analysis' should turn them up.

kieranm, as a start perhaps you could look at my levels video and see what common faults are present at each level then think of drills you would prescribe and work on with the individual...

You know it makes sense.

kieranm, I seem to remember ES Academy posting up continuous frame photos for skier analysis last summer on their website. Don't know if that's of help at all?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

kieranm, Something else to think about - remember to watch for what folk are doing well, as well as the stuff you'd like to change.

A snowHead

kieranm, Do you go to BSC? If not training their junior club would be good for you, their level 4 is racer orientated and easily BASI 1 in quality; in the past they have had Juniors who have got their BASI 2.

A snowHead

Good advice from Cynic, go study or video a race club session with permission of course, by seeing a lot of guys in succession doing the same task and getting the same job done in very different ways quickly identifies different habits of each skier.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Skimottaret: thanks, I was hoping you'd be happy for me to use them. The clip you posted recently of a "good skier on a bad day" is a perfect illustration of what I'm after.

Cynic: yes, heavily involved in BSC, and would love to instruct the junior club but as my daughter is going to be attending it this year I can't instruct and care for her at the same time so I focus on other courses. This is a shame as their junior club gets you exposure to a wide range of skier abilities which is part of what I'm missing.

I'll see if I can use the race club to get some videos - I think the club might already have quiet a few of these that other people have taken if I can borrow one of the cameras.

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kieranm, i was just jerking a few chains posting that video... people get a bit too hung up on what constitutes an "expert" the guy on that video is pretty good (15th in the olympics if i remember rightly) Wink

and when i told him he was skiing pants he wasnt best pleased and beasted me the rest of the day !

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

kieranm, found some old notes on Video Pointers for analysing skiers on video:

Watch pressure on o/s ski at the start of the turn.
Is the i/s leg the same angle as the o/s leg?
Watch the track of the ski.
Watch for the tail following the tip. If the tail is slipping then development is needed in pressure control.
The i/s ski may come off the ground due to stretching of the o/s leg. If so the i/s leg will be a straight. If the skier is ‘lifting’ then the i/s leg would be bent.
Angle of ski at fall line?

Video from Rear to see legs and hips better.
Look for the sequence of pressure, edge & rotation.

Video – when watching JUST observe – don’t make judgements.

• Speed of movement in relation to turn size. Quick movements during long turns means poor pressure control.
• Poor pressure control leads to poor turn shape.
• Watch irregular arcs, ski’s not bent.
• Movement patterns should be co-ordinated with appropriate range & rate – which relates to agility.
• Looking for ski edge angle before the flow line.
• Look where is the centre of mass
• Can judge hip rotation by looking at hips in relation to the ski’s. In the video the skier inclined his knees to compensate.

Cause & Effect. Look at the symptoms and find cause. Why is the person making the movement patterns they are?

Take Video but you don’t have to analyse it with the pupil, though they may like to see it. Analyse on own later

Be sure to make observations NOT assumptions - ** Observe without value **

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kieranm, You could go to race training Kirk's (if he is still there) concentration on what the skiers feet are doing is really to be commended.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kieranm,

I'd also add to skimottaret's list playing the video backwards so the brain really works on what is being seen instead of what you think you are seeing.

Don't jump to conclusions!

After all it is free

kieranm, Are you looking at doing the SSE L2 performance coach? If so, this is now exactly the same course as the BASI one.

skimottaret: very helpful, thanks, and scooby's idea of playing it backwards must be tried just to see if it works.

cynic: yes, Kirk's still there and doing a great job. I've not been to the race training sessions as I think it would be hard to justify at home another evening a week spent at the slope, but I think it would be a good source of people to video (and I expect Kirk already has some from there that I might be able to use).

Philbo: not the performance coach, the L2 instructor, I think. I must confess I don't full understand the different strands, but I'm happy doing instructor courses for now.

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kieranm, when you're MAing your video collection, I suggest you not do it from a mindset of right or wrong. Rather, simply identify what you see. As skimottaret pointed out in his first post, you can't evaluate for success/failure unless you know what the skiers objective was. On the other hand, it's always legitimate and valuable to identify what the skier is actually doing, and you can do that with any video that has good quality footage. Some things to look for:

- Fore/aft balance being exhibited, at all stages of the turn.
- Lateral balance being exhibited, at all stages of the turn.
- Is the turn steered or carved?
- If steered, how large a skid angle is being used, and does it change during the turn?
- What turn shape is being used? Identify both radius and degree of turn.
- Is the turn initiation pivoted or clean? If pivoted, how large?
- What type of transition is being employed? Cross over, cross under, cross through, retraction, up unweighting, ILE, OLR, white pass, etc.
- What type of rotary is being used? Upper body rotation? Anticipation? Counter rotation? Following the skis? Counter through the turn?

If you get skilled at quickly being able to identify all those things you'll be well on your way to becoming a very good ski instructor.

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kieranm, Hope it's going OK.

I came across this which has a decent selection of abilities attempting the same task (BASI shorts / Longs), as part of ISIA training. There is more video on the channel from earlier in the season for comparison plus some ISTD footage.

http://youtube.com/v/YuJr4CLenxk&feature=relmfu

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AndAnotherThing... That looks really helpful, thank you!

kieranm, The footage was shot in Courmayeur. IIRC the piste pitches are reasonable 'Reds' while the bumps are an itinerary black.

You know it makes sense.

kieranm, what flaw do you see in almost all (bar one) of the L3 candidates ?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

skimottaret, Based on the leading question and no review of the video - one?

A snowHead

fatbob, I would think more than a few got through but check the video for MA... (ps have deleted the who got through ? as isnt the point of this thread)

A snowHead

skimottaret, their skis are too fat?

ROFLOL he he Twisted Evil

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I probably won't have time to look in detail till the weekend, but will get back to you then.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

skimottaret, There's some seriously weird arm positions being held!

Is it that almost no one is actually arcing short radius turns with a lot of pivot going on. IF I had to guess I'd say girl in the headband, multcoloured jacket is first pass with a couple of the more aggressive bokes in blue behind that.

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fatbob, I could care less about the arm positions... if you are seeing a lot of pivoting going what might be the root cause of it ?

(having had a second look should have said bar 2 or so candidates, not one)

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

gatecrasher, good guess but why are most of em unable to pressure the ski early in the turn ?

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one or two lack separation but that isnt the common flaw I am seeing, i dont particularly see much banking but there is something that is common... When the guy crashes out why did he go?

Help!!

Videos for practicing analysis of skiers

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