 Poster: A snowHead
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Am I right in thinking there are generally less savings to be made? I just looked at costs of hotels I booked independently in the past compared with package costs.
USA is not the same. A fortnight there where you book flights and accommodation can still be a lot cheaper than package.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure where you are George Jones, but in the UK getting a package holiday for couple can make a great saving as the flight costs and transfers are usually included.
It a lot tougher if you try to plan something a little "a la carte" like trying to get people to meet up from different countries.
Or singles or any sort of square peg for round holes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It depends when you want to go. A package tour at a peak week will typically cost twice (about £1100) more than a low season week. But if you arrange it yourself the cost of crossing the channel will rise by at most £10 per person and the apartment by about £100 per person. The cost of motorway tolls, fuel and food will not alter. I have not noticed restaurants in the resorts increasing their prices.
At low season you will be pushed to beat the tour operators, but at high season you can easily do it.
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Thinking about that your right johnE, At peak times like Christmas, Easter & Half Term a tour operator can fill up his allocation and charge as much as he wants.
But in those off peak days they have to fill those seats and beds for whatever they can get.
I do tend to hold off booking till about Wednesday on the weekend I want to go in mid January.
Its just a bit more exciting not really knowing where you're going till a couple of days before.
I hope it works this year !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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George Jones, there are too many variables for there to be any straight answer to that question. A return flight to Geneva, or another hub, can cost from £100 to 600, depending when you fly, and how far in advance you book. Equally, a hired car between 4 people makes for an economical transfer - costs for just 2 people will be double! I am arranging a big family party for Easter 2013 - flights are so expensive (school holidays) that for most of those involved, driving from the UK was cheaper than flying, even without the cost of transfers.
I think what makes the difference is not so much cost, but choice. If you DIY you have a choice of an enormous number of hotels, catered chalets (including the individually run ones which are likely to be far better than many of the TO offerings) and apartments in ALL resorts. Tour Operators in the UK only provide trips to a very small minority of the resorts available.
So if you're happy with the choice they offer, that's fine. But that's too restricted for some people. For our Easter trip we are renting 6 self-catering apartments, self-contained, but in a building with a big communal area including a children's play area, a big table to sit around and a ping-pong table. We are booking the whole building, which is right beside a piste, within yards of a free nursery tow, a decent restaurant with a big seating area outside (so you can sit with a beer and watch the kids pottering safely round on the free lift) and a reasonable supermarket. Not to be found in any TO brochure - DIY is the only way. Because Easter holidays is not a peak time for French skiing the apartments are available at low season rents. No question of prices being inflated because it's British school hols.
You can book single rooms in hotels direct - there's no need to go through a TO just for that reason. Equally some resorts subsidise the cost of transfers - eg in the Italian Dolomites, where bus transfers from an airport such as Venice are very reasonable. AND you can have a sneaky day or so in Venice for little extra cost.
Another irritation is that TOs in Europe are inevitably Sat/Sat or Sun/Sun. If you DIY you can take advantage of lower mid week flights. There are apartments available to rent on flexible timings and it would also be feasible to book an apartment for two weeks then travel out on Tuesday, back on the following Thursday, with cheap flights and empty roads!
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I'm going from Ireland and am pretty sure a package would be cheaper than DIY, but I always go for 4 days for work reasons, so its prob more an economy of scale thing. Also sitting on a bus and sleeping like sardines in block booked season long accomodation is always going to be cheaper than renting a car / private transfer and paying per day for accomodation.
But it suits me to go for 4 / 5 days so I always do. Also its handy to have a car in a lot of resorts (places like Chamonix and St Anton for instance).
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It really depends what you want. For a single skier like myself a package is always cheaper, the transfer alone makes DIY more difficult and expensive. The other big issue I have found is a lack of scheduled flights from convenient airports. However, the British TOs have their favourite resorts/ski areas and there are many gems out there in the Alps that simply aren't served by them and can only be discovered if you DIY. It's not always about cost. I've also noticed that since the downturn the TO season seems to have shortened and some of the regional flights are not available outside of peak weeks, so the TO choices can be even more limited.
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Hi 8611,
I'm not sure why you'd want a car in Stanton?
I've been with and without several times and I've never found a car very useful ... only if you want to practice getting your chains on and off.
Use the bus.
Perhaps you have secret parking place?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you're based somewhere like Innsbruck you can have everything (accom, food, drinks, ski hire and lift pass) for around £110 per day watching your pennies.
Add in flights for £80, as they currently are for much of Feb, and you have a week-long cost of under £800. Very few package deals work out at much (if anything) less than £1,000 these days.
NN
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If you're based somewhere like Innsbruck you can have everything (accom, food, drinks, ski hire and lift pass) for around £110 per day watching your pennies.
Add in flights for £80, as they currently are for much of Feb, and you have a week-long cost of under £800. Very few package deals work out at much (if anything) less than £1,000 these days.
NN
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As others have said, a lot depends on when you go, when you book etc. I save a lot going february holidays DIYing and a little in the Easter holidays. Would probably be cheaper for me packaging low season or booking last minute but I when doing this I am not usually going for the standard package length.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It really depends what you want.
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I think that is pretty much the key. There are so many variables that it is impossible to make a comparison without specifics.
DrLawn, agree with you on the car and St Anton. Can't really see the reason.
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It really depends on where/when/who goes. I'm making a big saving in January as the TO prices are the same for all of my family at approx £950 PP (from memory). The hotel when booked direct only charges about half that for my son and next to nothing for my daughter. Early booking discount (5%) and loyalty bonus (2%) make it even cheaper. BA flights booked well in advance and only a short train transfer from Innsbruck make for a saving of over £1000 on the same holiday compared to Inghams/Nielson (and you get civilised BA flight times).
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You know it makes sense.
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Like pam w says, there's no 100 word executive summary answer. But I'm going to try anyway 
We always used to go DIY self-catering until about 3 years ago. Now we tend to get catered deals (albeit usually without flights) and we reckon the costs are about the same, or to within such a small margin that it makes little difference.
I blame the cost of groceries as being the limiting factor. Self catering used to feel cheap, and it doesn't any more. Car hire seems to have gone through the roof as well.
So I think DIY used to be a considerable saving, nowadays to me (by which I mean 'us', the group I usually go with) it feels like a lot of faff for a very modest saving - or no saving at all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's an interesting question George Jones, and one which we look at quite a lot.
I work in the industry (we have a chalet which we offer caterered without flights and transfers although previously I have worked for package tour operaors too) and when we are doing our pricing, dates etc we try and compare ourselves to local self-catered and package accommodation of the same level.
In general, I think that it is all pretty similar in most cases by the time that you add in sensible travel costs when comparing with tour operator. The same applies when you add in an equivilant level of food shopping done in resort and a couple of meals out with a self-catered option. I think that factors such as the level of the accommodation and the resort you choose have a larger overall implication on costs.
The main significant difference I can see between TO and DIY is logistical rather than financial. In general if you want 7 day accommodation for multiples of two people, ease of booking, nothing to organise and a guaranteed standard a large tour operator package is your best bet. If you want something slightly different - 6 nights, self drive, single room, choice of how you travel etc etc - better food and a more personalised service then DIY is your best option.
I don't think that one is necessarily better or cheaper than the other - it more depends on what suits you personally.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In general if you want 7 day accommodation for multiples of two people, ease of booking, nothing to organise and a guaranteed standard a large tour operator package is your best bet. If you want something slightly different - 6 nights, self drive, single room, choice of how you travel etc etc - better food and a more personalised service then DIY is your best option.
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This sums it up well, but I'd also add - far wider choice of resorts and, if you want to self-cater, any standard of accommodation you want. The TOs self-catering options are generally fairly low standard.
In a word - choice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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George Jones,
Like it's been said above, it's a good question, but the answer isn't really to do with cost; it's more to do with if you want to organise your own trip by adding all the various "bits" together.
There are many, many people around the Alps with their own chalets which they take great pride in, they will try and provide the best possible service and facilities for a price that they feel is competitive. Still on the chalet theme, there are also some companies that will block rent a number of chalets and again try and provide the best possible service and facilities they can whilst still making a profit.
Any yes there are some right dodgy chalet companies, but whilst these do tend to cloud the view (bad reviews travel faster and wider than good) these tend not to be around for too long.
So as far as chalets go, I would suggest that you book direct with someone who owns and runs their own place as then you'll be dealing with someone who has a vested interest in maintaining standards.
Hotels
Let’s face it, it all depends on what you’re looking for. If you want BA (first class) and a private limo from the airport to your 5* hotel there are companies that will supply this, eg. Scott Dun, etc.
But “most” people just want to go skiing to a clean hotel with en-suite rooms and reasonable food and go skiing. Some people want to take ski lessons, others want to hire equipment, etc but in general the vast majority of folk just want a reasonable fully inclusive ski trip.
I have stopped (about 2 years ago) posting onto a well known physics forum as it is just full of kids trying to get answers to homework questions and people with crack-pot ideas. But I still post answers to questions about visual basic (and SQL) on a certain forum on which almost everyone has a far greater knowledge of how databases work than the general public. If you read that forum could be mistaken for thinking that, as you don’t, there must be something wrong with you. But this is not true, it’s just that certain forums attract people with a greater knowledge of a particular subject. It is the same with this forum, when reading it you could be mistaken and think that most people DIY. Of course on a ski forum there will be a higher % of people that do, but this is in no way representative of the majority of UK skiers.
So back to the question, as I said it all depends on what you’re looking for, and how much you think is reasonable.
You will have noticed posts like this.
| Neil Neige wrote: |
| Very few package deals work out at much (if anything) less than £1,000 these days. |
| musher wrote: |
| I'm making a big saving in January as the TO prices are the same for all of my family at approx £950 PP |
statements like this can skew the discussion as they are misleading (in general). As an example we sell Half Term (“fully” inclusive) ski trips for between £710 (quad room) and £880 (twin room). Also from £690 (Non Half Term) and this even includes a week’s ski school (the instructor is dam fine BTW  ) now I personally think this is reasonable, but others may disagree. But remmebr that from this (tiny) amount we have to provide flights, transfers, lift pass, hotels, equipment, resort staff, administration, etc, etc. I know for sure that you have no chance what-so-ever of doing the same thing for the same price in our area for the same price if you DIY. As small chalet operators don't have the bulk buying power that we do, you will not find many chalets available for anywhere near this, but of course there will be a few.
As I said it all depends on what you feel is a good price and if you like doing the washing up
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 8-11-12 10:51; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There are also plenty of package bundles direct with hotels and guest houses (certainly are in places like Austria), with HB and lift pass thrown in, often with room cost being close to zero. Again it's choice - both resorts that TO's don't go to, and smaller, friendlier hotels where they do. Just add transport.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
There are also plenty of package bundles direct with hotels and guest houses (certainly are in places like Austria
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I think in France these bundles tend to be with self-catered apartments as there are fewer hotels (generalisation). They can offer exceptional value - and for people who are not filling an apartment completely they can offer better value than the TOs with their "under occupancy" charges. Overall value depends on organising your travel sensibly, obviously. It's quite difficult to compare.
Some people positively enjoy organising trips and like to be independent. Others want to switch brain off and sit back and let someone else do the planning and sorting out any problems. Fortunately we are not all the same!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Assuming that is the same charge for all 4 occupants, that's where my saving came over the TO. The TO was charging the same price for all 4 of us, including 2 young children.
Obviously the airline charges the same regardless of age as it's just a bum on a seat to them, but the hotel DIY was very different. The TO £950 for my 5 year old became £100 flight + free hotel. My 8 year old was a whole load more expensive at £100 flight + £80 hotel. Mrs M & I are £100 flight + £650 hotel. A total saving of about £1800 (I'd forgotten just how good it was  ). The first time we went to this hotel was with a TO (in the summer) and we got free child places. They don't seem to make that offer during the winter.
I haven't included the transfers as they are only about £20 for all of us on the train. We could walk from the station, but the hotel will pick us up.
Obviously for this particular DIY holiday I have made a big saving. I'm sure I be hard pressed to beat some of the TO self catering deals in France with a long transfers from the airport to the resort though.
One potential saving that can add up for a larger family is by not flying Saturday to Saturday. At Christmas I have been lucky to find a Swiss hotelier that is taking us from Sunday to Monday (8 nights) The savings on the flights more than paid for the extra day in the resort.
Another good reason to look at the DIY route is if you collect Avios / air miles / Nectar points etc. If you can organise free transport then the options really open up.
Now if only I can convince BA or Swiss to start flying from Bristol or Bournemouth...
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I am not making a case for package or DIY. I am simply asking whether - simply on costs - there are the same savings as there used to be.
I take the point about peak season prices. Some companies really try to gouge what they believe is a captive market.
I also had half board hotels in mind when talking about Europe but flight and accommodation when thinking of the US. There may be flawed logic there. I am happy with just accommodation in US but in Europe not so much.
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I have done both DIY and TO ski trips and when comparing TO to DIY you also have to consider what you are getting for your £££s.
Exiting arrivals to see your driver holding up your surname is worth a lot when you compare it to waiting on the transfer bus for two hours while the reps hunt out for the Clampit family who have gone AWOL in the terminal.
Staying in a chalet with experienced staff serving quality food and unlimited quality wine is worth a lot more than a TO operated chalet-hotel serving basic food and rationed table wine. Etc Etc.
It all adds up to you get what you pay for.
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With TO you can find some very good and cheap deals if you are flexible and prepare to hold for late last minute deals. Food and wine in a chalet will help a lot. They might have deals on ski passes etc otherwise hard to find etc.
Full TO prices are usually very expensive though.
For DIY - if flights are involved, it takes a lot of careful planning. You have to book early to have them cheap. Hotels will mostly have flat rates so no discounts available.
But you can put together more bespoke trips, we've done 8 or 9 days trips, and moved relatively easily between 2 resorts. Still for very reasonable price.
We have been DIY to Obertauern fairly cheap while it is almost impossible with TO.
For my, I will be doing more DIY than TO for sure, mostly as I can put together more interesting trip for slightly less money - at least most of the time.
But If I would want to go catered to well served resort, Saturday to Saturday, TO deals almost certainly will work out cheaper.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, This is a pretty impressive list! Made me look at your link straight away 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tom W,
I forgot to add
Last season
I introduced Mrs_W to the joys of moguls 
I impressed everyone with my karaoke talents
I tried (and failed) to find an Italian word for “fluffy”
Hmmmmmm, I've changed my mind. I think everyone should go DIY if you're within hearing shot of my singing on a karaoke night
It WILL cost you more but at least you'll be saved from a hideous experience
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DIY vs Package is a false dichotomy anyway. Our next chalet trip with UK pals is on the basis that the catered chalet is booked with airport transfers included, but people sort their own flights. That's neither DIY nor package, to my mind.
Also have used Snowtrex a couple of times, which is a way of booking self-catering with inclusive lift pass and bundled ski hire. Again, not really a package, but not totally DIY either.
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You know it makes sense.
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Tom W,
The ATB are offering decent sounding HB 4* holidays with lift pass included in Obertauern at the moment from €430 - just the flight & transfers to be added.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've done them both. TBH I prefer DIY as I can squeeze two weeks out of a one week budget if I work at it. However one of our group has decided that she would prefer a slightly nicer holiday experience this season so we've booked with Wayne to Folgarida.
Wayne, if you get said person (or their offspring) in your class then please don't take it out on me 
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Poster: A snowHead
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musher, hmm hotel with included lift pass (in Euros). no flights, not transfers. That sounds exactly like many deals on individual resort/hotels websites. Therefore I would call it DIY
What is ATB anyway pls?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne,
Gosh ... you sound like a bit of a saint .... You'll get your reward in Heaven!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have always done my ski holidays DIY. I think it works out cheaper.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With a package holiday you gets what someone else wants to sell you.
With a DIY you get more or less what you want, and are in charge of it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm going to Soldeu for a week over Christmas this year with my girlfriend who has not skied before & Soldeu is excellent for beginners. I have not gone through a travel agent, but have got everything separately. For return flights, return transfers, an apartment in a chalet 300m from the main telecabin lift, a Grandvalira full area ski pass, ski equipment hire & 15 hours of ski school comes to the grand total of £570 each. Is that cheap or expensive?
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Tom W,
I was putting it forward as a DIY option - The Austrian Tourist Board (I actually  up that acronym - it should be the Austrian National Tourist Office)
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gary,
That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
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gary, impressive! Well done.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gary, that's certainly impressive. Have a great holiday.
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gary, a week's GV lift pass alone is €200, so that's £400 for flights, transfers, accommodation, equipment hire and lessons. Sounds too good to be true.
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FAQ
I arrange for a new hotel (at HT, not so simple) for half of an engaged coupe who split up on the plane
