9 dead including 3 British apparently. Is it normal to have Avalanches in the summer? You dint really hear about it that much.
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Ricklovesthepowder, This from the Telegraph,
Simon Blackmore, a British mountain guide, said the tragedy happened on a popular but perilous route.
Many of those attempting the climb are inexperienced and unaware of the dangers of giant overhanging ice cliffs, or “seracs”.
Mr Blackmore said he had once had a once had a lucky escape when a serac “the size of an apartment block” collapsed in front of him.
He said: “When climbers started using this route, some of the guides immediately said, this is a very, very dangerous route. It is a route that traverses under seracs – hanging ice cliffs.
“Three years ago there was another big accident where one of these things came down on a party. This one happened a little further on.”
Mr Blackmore said a hot summer in the area had made conditions “unpredictable”.
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Ricklovesthepowder wrote:
9 dead including 3 British apparently. Is it normal to have Avalanches in the summer? You dint really hear about it that much.
Avalanches are very common during the summer months... just that we as skiers are pretty much oblivious to them as they don't tend to directly affect us as a group.
The bigger fluctuations in temps and the sun being higher in the sky for longer as well as getting to those places that don't usually get the sun through the winter can lead to avalanches in locations that aren't expected during the winter months.
Sounds like the route affected is known as a dangerous one and they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Condolences out to all affected
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9 dead including 3 British apparently. Is it normal to have Avalanches in the summer? You dint really hear about it that much.
Yes, just usually there would be less people in avi terrain to be affected by them (mainly climbers).
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Quote:
Mr Blackmore said a hot summer in the area had made conditions “unpredictable”.
And as shoogly pointed out, there have been big variations in temperature and weather around here recently - very warm this past few days, and alternating between heavy rain and thunderstorms, and hot sunny days for the past few weeks.
I've got some friends training for a very similar climb up there at the moment, yikes
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Quote:
Is it normal to have Avalanches in the summer?
In the very hot summer of 2003 the entire mountain was closed, it was so dangerous. All you could see, looking at it, were the glaciers, glinting in the sun. No snow anywhere.
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Does anyone know if it was seracs and if it was definitely mont maudite? I thought the dangerous bit was the serac face on mont blanc du tacul, which was where the last big accident took place. I remember a guide pointing to the route saying it was a very dangerous route up mont blanc when we were doing the valley blanche.
Sounds like it was definitely the tres monts route from the number of climbers involved. This was the route from someone's recent tr on skiing mont blanc with glen plake. I'm just surprised because I thought the bit between tacul and maudite was relatively flat and not exposed to higher ground, but I must be wrong.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
8611, the report on the beeb suggests it was a snow avalanche, although it could have been triggered by icefall. doesn't seem to be any question that it was on Mt Maudit
Just watched the news and they look to be reporting that 2 Brits who were, maybe below the avalanche walked down and reported to the Police that they were Ok, maybe a little good news after all.
Sad day for all mountain lovers.
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Quote:
There has been a major avalanche on Mont Maudit in the Chamonix region. Nine climbers are confirmed dead – including former General Secretary of the BMC and Mountain Guide Roger Payne.
Dave Turnbull, the current BMC Chief Executive, said:
“The mountaineering world is shocked and saddened to learn of the tragic death of Roger Payne, former BMC General Secretary and former President of the British Mountain Guides. Roger was one of the UK’s most enthusiastic and respected climbers with a track record of Alpine and Himalayan mountaineering stretching back to the 1980s. Our thoughts are with Roger’s friends and family – in particular his wife Julie-Ann (Clyma).”
sad news about Roger Payne - I'd looked at a few of his tours with the Eagles in the past
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Very sad. You don't want to be around seracs with lots of melting going on.
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Sad news, reminds us all of how powerful Nature can be.
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CH2O wrote:
Quote:
Mr Blackmore said a hot summer in the area had made conditions “unpredictable”.
Coldest for many many years,
I'm surprised if that's the case? Looks to me like it's been above average so far this summer in the Alps certainly further east.
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nozawaonsen, No relying on anything other than how I dress from day to day compared to the last 10 or so years. It's my impression, that's all, so far 2 days at the lakes swimming, compared to at least 10-20 by this time in recent years. It's been far from warm and dry.
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CH2O, certainly hasn't been dry or settled for extended periods. Further east they've been breaking records for warmth in Austria, but also with very heavy rainfall at times.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The raspberries and strawberries have a fair way to go before making it to our dining table too, last year ( a proper hot and extended start to the summer) we'd a freezer full.
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shoogly, ...there's been some very unclear stuff written about this in the general press, but an accurate picture is beginning to emerge. The Daily Mail, much to my surprise, appears to have some sensible reporting on it, as does the Telegraph - both websites have some valuable photos of the scene. Roger Payne's loss is extremely sad, and condolences go to his immediate kin.
This is a route with exposure to incidents high above, and that appears to have been what occurred. This is a nasty situation, where unseen events high on the mountain can catch people unaware far below. You need to know a mountain inside out to know of all the locations in which this is a significant risk.
The idea that 'things were warming up' are pretty absurd. Significant warming of the snowpack does not occur that early in the morning. It appears that higher climbers released a 40cm slab, and that set off a lower sluff/slough avalanche, but one which included the bigger debris from above. "They didn't hear it coming", which is reported in a number of papers, falls into the trap of thinking of massive powder slides, with airborn velocity, and accompanying high noise levels, but it does not match the kind of debris in the photos. This 'didn't hear it', is unsurprising, since many sluffs are virtually silent. I have nearly been caught in them, and they look innocuous, until you understand the volume of snow moving, and the dynamics, which can pull you under the surface. In Tony Daffern's excellent 'Avalanche Safety for skiers and climbers' http://www.amazon.com/Avalanche-Safety-Skiers-Climbers-Daffern/dp/0898866472?tag=amz07b-21 there is a tiny sluff avalanche in a small bowl in a forest, it looks like a stupidly small event - a few centimetres of snow moving a couple of metres. It killed one person.
This event is terribly unfortunate, and the conditions of the last few months, snowfall and high wind, is highly conducive to windslab breaks. It looks like an unfortunate series of events rather than a single breakdown of judgement - although if anyone has an inside line on the view of local guides, a different view of being in that place with the conditions of the last few weeks might emerge.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
valais2, Heard many guides say that attempts at MB have been tricky this year, due to tiny weather windows and such variable conditions, mostly alot of snow. They tend to push them through in June and July, as oportunities dwindle away, and revenue looks short, attempts maybe comprimised and rushed through. Now i'm not saying this has been the case here and doubt any companies would take risks with their clients lives.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Simon Blackmore, a British mountain guide, said the tragedy happened on a popular but perilous route.
CLARIFICATION: Please don't confuse this quoted individual with Tim Blakemore who, unlike the above individual, IS a IFMGA Mountain Guide based in Chamonix / Les Houches who was in the area at the time.
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CH2O, thanks for this.
I'm not going to speculate over the specifics of this incident - maybe a full report will come in from the French magistrates. But it's a wakeup call for those who have limited time when they arrive for some climbing and set out immediately after high wind periods. It's incredibly frustrating to have some good objectives in mind, then be stuck in the valley due to bad weather, with a temptation to get on the hill as soon as the weather abates. But a high wind period leaves so many places at risk of windslab, and this immediate period after a bad weather session can be fatal. This is very helpful, I think:
The first seems obscure - nice riding in trees - very relaxed. And no way could they be prone to avalanche - they are in the trees right? And no avalanches occur in trees. Wrong. The clip is a bit obscure, but what happens is he triggers wind slab in a glade, and this is exactly like the small slide in Daffern's boook which killed one person. This is a real wake up call. Note in this clip that they are no longer skiing close together, so if a slide happended and the second was buried, that may well be it. And people skies trees without transceivers - 'we're doing low down stuff in trees, so no chance of avalanche today. Wrong. We had a small slide in our garden last Feb. It looked innocuous, although had one of our small kids been going from chalet to chalet alone they could have been under it for 15mins before we'd realised.
badly adhered layer, beneath the lee of the ridge, watch the break pattern from the turns. Just because there are tracks on something, doesn't mean it's not going to go. Note that it's very quiet when it goes.
I skied Arolla on a tracked slope, didn't use my snow senses, and watched with some rising concern as cracks opened as I traversed prior to getting to the drop in point - but I was committed and that was that. But I skied VERY big turns down the slope, which was clearly in exactly the same state as the slope in the second clip. I had low levels of absolute local knowledge and had made a judgement in the face of high avalanche warning. That day was a bit of a wake up call.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w, Not good! What the hell is happening this last week?
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valais2 wrote:
The idea that 'things were warming up' are pretty absurd.
Just to make it clear, my post was in response to Ricklovesthepowder questioning the normality of summer avalanches. I never attempted to analyse the Mt Maudit avalanche, especially since it was so soon after and I don't know the place at all.
Mountains kills people - not just big ones; quite a lot of people die every year in the Cairngorms (mountaineering is, I believe, one of the more dangerous sports in terms of fatalities). Some victims are foolish and/or ill-equipped, others are not.
These deaths are very sad, and have hit the headlines here partly because Brits were involved, I suppose. But there are an average of a couple of deaths a week, I believe, so the recent news doesn't mean anything particularly unusual is happening. I think the local French authorities have said there was no reason to have anticipated such a deadly avalanche? There isn't always someone to "blame" for an accident.
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pam w, there is in America
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pam w wrote:
Mountains kills people - not just big ones; quite a lot of people die every year in the Cairngorms (mountaineering is, I believe, one of the more dangerous sports in terms of fatalities). Some victims are foolish and/or ill-equipped, others are not.
t.
Just to give some prospective there's an average of something like a few hundred climbing deaths per year but the number of climbers visiting the alps is in the hundreds of thousands every summer. This accident is very sad but it is such a big story because is so out of the ordinary. You're at far greater risk driving to and from the alps than you are climbing there.
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I sometimes suggest that the most dangerous part of most mountain holidays is probably the drive there (particularly if you are determined to average 75 mph for 8 hours, as some willy-wavers appear to do) but I wonder if it's true? Hard to compare statistics, because of participation rates, but I guess mountaineering is more dangerous than, say, playing soccer?
My point was rather that this accident was not particularly "out of the ordinary" given that people die all year round on Mont Blanc and summer conditions can be very dangerous. The big numbers involved hit the headlines, as does a big motorway pile-up, but the tragedy is the same for the families of people killed in small numbers, isn't it?
But that's better than the 5% fatality rate on Mount Everest.
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Does anyone know definitively what the fatality stats are? I've heard (since this incident kicked off some public debate):
50-60 around Mont Blanc (from the article above)
100 a year in the Chamonix area (press article)
100 alpine deaths a year (BBC radio)
these 3 sets of figures could all be true if some are only talking climbing deaths (not skiing), some don't include say deaths on the Italian side of MB, some include all fatalities in any sport (climbing/paragliding/base jumping/skiing).
I'ld kind of like to know (out of purely morbid interest) what the 'alpine activities' stat is for the Chamonix Valley.
Actually it wouldn't just be morbid interest it would be a tool to give people a sense of perspective. Currently I have my tenant downstairs telling her OH he has to cancel his booked MB ascent in Sept, whilst a good friend is pushing on with her plans as "the nine killed were on a climbing route and her planned 'walking' route up with a guide carries no risk"! IMO there both wrong, they should both go ahead but with a reasoned acknowledgement of the inherent objective risks.
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