 Poster: A snowHead
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Vail in Colorado is currently offering, for the 17 December-1 January period, a 7 day (that's any 7 days out of 10) liftpass ... for the price of $553.
If you'd like to make an advance purchase of this bargain, go to www.vail.com !
In exchange for this sum, Vail is promising more pisted runs than any other ski area in the world. They've bought no fewer than nine new grooming machines to achieve this, and are planning to smooth 1300 to 1600 acres per night - a 32% increase this winter.
Sources: www.dailysnow.com www.skipressworld.com
Any well-groomed snowHeads going to Vail this winter?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, I was just looking on their site earlier, and there's snow on the mountains around Vail. I may make a trip over there this season. I haven't planned it yet, though.
Yup, Christmas/New Year is high season for them. Go on 2nd Jan, and it's $420.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Any well-groomed snowHeads going to Vail this winter? |
Correction: "Any well-mortgaged snowHeads going to Vail this winter?"
Your Excellency, would you care to illustrate the quality of your grooming?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Vail is promising more pisted runs than any other ski area in the world
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How they gonna do that then, make each one very short.
320 biffs for 7 days skiing, no thanks.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Your Excellency, would you care to illustrate the quality of your grooming? |
No thanks. It would be wasted on the illiterate.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Vail is promising more pisted runs than any other ski area in the world. |
Not sure I understand that statement. In what way can they claim more pisted runs than any other ski area when Vail is very much smaller than, for example, the Trois Vallees?
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rob@rar.org.uk, if they piste more runs per day than any other ski area, then they could claim it. The 3Vs may be bigger, but if their daily piste bashing is fewer runs, then Vail would be correct in its claim.
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rob, here's the report from SkiPressWorld that quotes Vail's claim: click here.
It does seem a bold promise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, surely a run remains pisted until the next significant snowfall? Does it have to be groomed every day to qualify for the term 'pisted'?
I think Vail's claim needs a few qualifying statements for it to make sense.
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David Goldsmith, thanks. Some of the qualifying staments I wanted, or at least questions about them, are included in the SkiPress article.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Vail is promising more pisted runs than any other ski area in the world
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In the USA this is probably a correct statement due to the fact that for the majority of US citizens USA IS the world.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat, surely a run remains pisted until the next significant snowfall? Does it have to be groomed every day to qualify for the term 'pisted'?
I think Vail's claim needs a few qualifying statements for it to make sense. |
I think others would have to prove them wrong!
Well, if it doesn't snow for a few days, and the run turns into a mogul field, should it be claimed as being pisted?
But, of course, it's in America, so I'm bound to stand up for any anti-European thoughts on here, because I hate Europe. Everything I said above is a lie, please ignore me...
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
I think others would have to prove them wrong!
Well, if it doesn't snow for a few days, and the run turns into a mogul field, should it be claimed as being pisted? |
No, if it has properly developed bumps on it it should be classed it as a mogul field. But not every run turns into a mogul field after 8 hours of skiing, in fact I would probably guess that it is only a minority of runs that do. Other runs remain recognisably 'pisted' for a long time if no snow falls.
Perhaps Vail's comment should have been something like "most number of freshly groomed pistes than anywhere else in the world" (if that claim stands scrutiny, of course).
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
But, of course, it's in America, so I'm bound to stand up for any anti-European thoughts on here, because I hate Europe. Everything I said above is a lie, please ignore me... |
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
I think others would have to prove them wrong!
Well, if it doesn't snow for a few days, and the run turns into a mogul field, should it be claimed as being pisted? |
No, if it has properly developed bumps on it it should be classed it as a mogul field. But not every run turns into a mogul field after 8 hours of skiing, in fact I would probably guess that it is only a minority of runs that do. Other runs remain recognisably 'pisted' for a long time if no snow falls.
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I don't mean after 8 hours - if a run is pisted, then left to be skiied on for several days, then it may well turn into a mogul field. Can you then say the run is pisted?
At what point is it no longer considered a prepared piste?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, it may be time to source Vail's claims in their own words. Maybe there's a press release lurking around somewhere. Has anyone got the brochure mentioned?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 29-09-05 14:32; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Goldsmith, do you think if Val d'Isere put this in their brochure, that people on here would be so quick to critise the claim?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
I don't mean after 8 hours - if a run is pisted, then left to be skiied on for several days, then it may well turn into a mogul field. Can you then say the run is pisted?
At what point is it no longer considered a prepared piste? |
I don't think there is an agreed international definition of what a pisted ski run is, but my definition would be a ski run which has flattened snow and is largely free of regularly or irregularly spaced bumps. If that is accepted as the definition of a pisted run there is no way that Vail can claim the most amount of prepared piste in the world.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar.org.uk, I'd suggest you get a lawyer and sue them then!
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Vail is also showing photos of snow on surrounding mountains today.
The photos are bound to be photoshopped fakes.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, do you think if Val d'Isere put this in their brochure, that people on here would be so quick to critise the claim? |
You're being very defensive aren't you  Yes, if Val/Tignes claimed this I would have exactly the same question, and I would be interested in how they compared with 3V, PdS and even Paradiski.
Although I've not skied Vail, I'm not trying to say that it isn't a world class resort - I'm sure it is. But to claim the most amount of pisted runs than any other ski area in the world does not seem to be sustainable by the facts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| But to claim the most amount of pisted runs than any other ski area in the world does not seem to be sustainable by the facts. |
What facts are proving otherwise?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, I'd suggest you get a lawyer and sue them then! |
Why? It's just marketing nonsense. It's a shame that you've not been able to engage in a sensible discussion about it though 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat, The web site has some beautiful photos on it, and it does look a great ski resort but stop being so paranoid. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, I'd suggest you get a lawyer and sue them then! |
Why? It's just marketing nonsense. It's a shame that you've not been able to engage in a sensible discussion about it though |
Yes, it is a shame. I should have just agreed with the comments earlier on and just left it at that. Disagreeing is a bad idea.
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This is extracted verbatim from the Vail brochure, on a pdf file on their site www.vail.com :
| Quote: |
| The most groomed terrain on the planet ... on an average day, there are only two skiers per acre, and on a busy day less than four per acre! ... Combine that with an average of 1500 acres of groomed runs. |
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There's also this on page 4:
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| Nobody grooms more than Vail. In fact, we groom the most terrain on the planet and more than most resorts have in their entirety. Our 29 snowcats see to it every day. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
There's also this on page 4:
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| Nobody grooms more than Vail. In fact, we groom the most terrain on the planet and more than most resorts have in their entirety. Our 29 snowcats see to it every day. |
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Which compares to 70 piste bashers across the Trois Vallees.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As David Goldsmith says, it would be interesting to see Vail's own words on this so that one knows exactly what the claim is. It is, of course, difficult to check the apparent claim as the US and Europe measure these things differently.
Mmmm - trying to look for some numbers.
9 new piste bashers gives a 32% increase in pisting - suggests (in round numbers) they'll be going up from 28 to 37 machines. The 3Vs have 75 machines. Perhaps the American ones are bigger, or being worked harder?
Alternatively, Vail's claim as quoted above seems to refer to the most pisted runs, which suggests one should count pistes. In the 3Vs (at least in VT, I don't know if the same targets exist across the 3Vs so apologies for any errors in applying VT's targets to the area as a whole) the aim is to do 90% of blues & greens every night and 50% of the reds/blacks. This would suggest a total of 240 pistes bashed per night across the whoe area. Vail has 193 pistes.
As I said, without seeing the original claim it's difficult to agree with it or refute it, but it does seem a little surprising.
(Note: yes, I do like the 3Vs and I haven't been to Vail - which I might prefer. Quite happy for the claim to be genuine, in which case it's very impressive.)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 29-09-05 20:08; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For those who think size of ski resort is important when planning a week or two on skis (not me, I think size of resort is an over-rated factor), ski-guide author Charles Leocha had this to say about how the 3V compares in size to resorts in the US:
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| Another way to look at the expanse of this region is to take a look at how many of the largest ski resorts in the United States can fit into the Trois Vallèes region. The late Snow Country magazine once did some of the calculations that resulted in the conclusion that the six largest ski areas in the United States could fit inside Le Trois Vallèes. That means that Killington, Vail, Heavenly, Steamboat, Squaw Valley and Park City could all fit inside the space covered by Le Trois Vallèes with room left over with almost 10,000 acres left over. So you can throw in Jackson Hole, Taos, Sun Valley, Keystone, Crested Butte, Alta, Solitude, Cranmore and Stowe and still have room left over. The expanse is breathtaking. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Vail claims to have 193 pistes, Trois Vallees claims to have 275 pistes. But...
In Europe typically you get one lift up a hill, and one run down the hill each side of the lift. In the US you typically get one lift up a hill covered in trees, and 10 near-identical runs cut through the trees in parallel. What makes an area feel large is the sensation of travelling that you get when you catch lifts up a hill, then ski down into the valley behind etc, and move onto the next area. On this basis the number of pistes is meaningless, what matters is the total skiable area and the number of lifts to get you to the skiing, and on that basis no-one would claim that Vail is bigger than 3V.
Having said all that, some things are more important than just size, and I'm not knocking Vail per se, just their over zealous marketeers!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Had to skip quite a few posts going round in circles.
Vail can word the claim any way it likes, most people will know that Vail will fit into one of the 3 valleys so their lift pass looks an obscene price compared to its European neighbours. And as Plake says the way the US cuts trails into a hill can make them undistinguishable from the other 5 or so they have cut down the same line.
I'd go to Vail on a skiing basis but I wouldn't pay those lift pass prices..!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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surely the piste in Vail is only used to get to/from the back bowls, so the smoother it is, the quicker that passage will be
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gregh,
No, don't piste them at all, that might cut down the crowds...!!!
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I'm not sure that being regularly piste bashed is that much of a draw anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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*sweeping generalisation* Most average US skiers love perfect pistes (corduroy ), the smoother the better for them. *end sweeping generalisation*
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This article may help compare the biggest linked and non linked resorts in the world. Unsurprisingly North America disappears off the bottom.
http://www.ski-europe.com/news/articles/snow-h/ski09-06-05.html
With regard to lift price Vail are offering skiing at £45 per day compared to the 3 Valleys at somewhere in the region of £20 per day.
Is the skiing in Vail twice as good as the 3 Valleys or would I simply be paying for a huge Insurance liability and lots of flattened runs, if I went to Vail ?
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FAQ
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