 Poster: A snowHead
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Yesterday's Guardian featured avalanches in its regular Weatherwatch column. The piece doesn't seem to be online yet, but here are a few quotes. The article, which is only about 300 words long, is by David Hambling:
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The most dangerous are slab avalanches, in which a sheet of hard snow slides down a slope in a single gigantic piece.
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I don't think this is true. As I understand it, airborne avalanches which generate substantial compressed air forces and long paths of destruction are the most dangerous (e.g. the avalanche which hit Galtur in 1999, killing 31 people and destroying buildings).
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| New high-tech location devices are being introduced, including portable radio beacons and Recco radar reflectors attached to clothing |
The Recco website states that its equipment went into commercial use from 1983, with a live rescue of a buried Recco user first recorded in 1987. Interesting reading: http://www.recco.com/company/story.asp
Wikipedia dates the invention of the avalanche transceiver to 1968 (inventor, Dr John Lawton), with the 457 kHz frequency standard adoped from 1986, followed by competition with 2275 kHz transceivers.
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| Locating buried victims rapidly is a matter of life and death, and this is why avalanche rescue dogs are invaluable ... a dog team can transported to the search area in minutes by helicopter ... For the present, an avalanche dog is still the most reliable method of rescue ... |
This is maybe the most worthwhile bit of the article for discussion. How many ski resorts still have avalanche dogs? How do they rate against transceivers (or Recco)?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 30-01-09 13:43; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Could be wrong, but I understood that many of the mangy pooches you see asleep outside many lift stations were trained avalanche dogs?
Can't comment on which (dogs or transceivers) has the better rescue rate - but I'd imagine dogs are more effective at finding body parts
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, OK, so you need to alert security, wake the dog up, get to the helicopter, get to the location (assuming weather permits), set the dog searching...
Yep, "For the present, an avalanche dog is still the most reliable method of finding the bodies to hand to the grieving relatives"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We were in Montgenevre a few years ago, and there was an avalanche dog competition: hundreds (literally!) of dogs from all over France/Italy competing as to who could find the target quickest. It was quite a sight.
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I witnessed a rescue in Obergurgl a couple of years ago when a tranceiverless snowboarder was buried. Helicopter arrived and the dog eventually found the guy but he was buried for 20 mins. I heard that he survived but that's all and have heard nothing since. I think the dog arrived by helicopter and that took a while. Had he been wearing a tranceiver he probably would have been found sooner given the number of tranceiver wearers that quite quickly appeared on the scene. The avalanche occured adjacent to a piste.
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How do they rate against transceivers (or Recco)?
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Harder to put in your pocket 
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brian
brian
Guest
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| Kelskii wrote: |
| I think the dog arrived by helicopter and that took a while. |
Hey, go easy on the hound, have you ever tried to fly a chopper without the use of opposable thumbs ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| brian wrote: |
| Kelskii wrote: |
| I think the dog arrived by helicopter and that took a while. |
Hey, go easy on the hound, have you ever tried to fly a chopper without the use of opposable thumbs ? |
Apparently the landing was a bit ruff
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Boris wrote: |
| brian wrote: |
| Kelskii wrote: |
| I think the dog arrived by helicopter and that took a while. |
Hey, go easy on the hound, have you ever tried to fly a chopper without the use of opposable thumbs ? |
Apparently the landing was a bit ruff |
Hey, he was a trained avalanche Retriever
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was near an avalanche scene last month where the dog and the recco gear arrived in below 10 minutes. The buried bloke had a transceiver and still died.
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A nice man from Recco once told me that their beacons were only good if attached to ski boots because you could be pretty sure that the victim's boots would stay on them. Jackets with Reccos in them can easily end up a long way from the victim so you end up digging for a jacket (bit like being in TKMaxx). So really, when it comes to clothing, they are just a little gizmo that helps the gear sell more easily and for more dosh.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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alex_heney, if it were not for the fact that they are secured with a harness considerably more robust than a half open jacket zip...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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alex_heney, yes that is a valid point. I'd like to think my DTS Tracker would stay on because as you will probably know it straps on over the shoulder and round the waist rather than it being in a jacket pocket, but even so, if the forces are that great (as in an avalanche) to be able to rip the clothes off you then it makes you wonder if the transceiver would also be ripped off your body. I think it probably could.  Mind you, if that was happening then there could be a high possibility of a fatality from the injuries sustained.
stoatsbrother,
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I have seen a Austrian ski instructor ski with his beacon in his jacket pocket...
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That doesn't surprise me. Me and a friend went out with an off piste guide for a morning having been referred to them by the SCGB Rep for the "off piste day" in the week. I already had my own beacon, a DTS Tracker which was worn as described above, but the guide was handing out Barryvox Pulses and was saying to the other people for them to put the beacon in their jacket pockets. Also none of the others in the group were given shovels or probes, it was just the guide that had a shovel and probe, and me, I had the stuff with me not that the guide asked me if I did or not.......I don't think, although I could be wrong, that any or most of the people given the beacons knew how to use them or had used them before and as far as I know, the beacons weren't discussed with them either. I was very new to off piste then although had recently been on an Off Piste course and therefore, I had done some beacon training with a race against the clock to find buried beacons etc. It did occur to me when we started out about what would happen if the both me and the guide had got buried? Who would dig us out or even know how to find us because they didn't know how to use the beacons even? It was probably only because I'd been on a course recently that those thoughts went through my mind, I don't expect the other people worried about it.
As such, I am a bit particular who takes me off piste now and also only ski off piste in groups of people that have the kit and know how to use it, I just feel better that way. At the time I wondered if perhaps I was being over cautious being a bit concerned, but with the number of incidents happening lately with all this snow we've been having I think I was right to feel a bit uncomfortable about it. About the same time there was an avalanche (although no one was hurt fortunately) in the resort that ran onto a piste.
It amazes me how these avalanche dogs can detect the scent of a person who may be many metres beneath the snow!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, I hear it's easier for the doggies to find men due to the stronger smelling male BO. Six feet of snow is no barrier to this. The lack of female BO and the tendency of females to use large quantities of perfume and deodorant can be dangerous, masking the BO and confusing the pooches.
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VolklAttivaS5, I've had a similar thing with a very experienced guide. I was totally ignorant of beacons at the time.
I suspect his argument would be that it's not possible to teach a group how to use avalanche transceivers effectively in less than about 4 hours...and most clients probably wouldn't want to 'waste' that time unless they'd specifically requested it. I also imagine that given such a group, the guide would probably be sticking to 'safe' terrain (yes, I know...no such thing) and would first and foremost be keen on avoiding getting avalanched in the first place (and would be particularly avoiding *himself* getting buried) 
I did hear from someone that no guide had ever been dug out of an avalanche by his clients (presumably not actually true?)...supposedly this was because in the cases where the guide got caught it was such a bad avalanche that it either killed them outright or buried them deep enough for no hope of return. Of course it could equally be that guides are willing to take out 'punters' without teaching them how to use beacons...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ChrisWo, yeah I know what you mean......don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting him to go all out and do the whole beacon training thing with us/them, as you say that would have taken quite some time anyway to do that properly. I did think though that it would be reasonable for him to at least ask the people, had they used them before, did they know how they worked etc as to me that just seemed like common sense so he knew beforehand what knowledge if any, they had. Admittedly because he knew we were all new or very inexperienced off piste, he would have taken us to the "safer" terrain anyway as you have suggested.
I do remember being on the first chair lift, and one of the group saying to him, "So what's this Transponder thing you've given us then?"  and then it dawning on me what the consquences could be..............potentially, but again that was probably because I'd recently done a course and we'd talked about it.
I reckon probably in your example it is the latter.........I suspect there are plenty of people that want to go off piste (and who can blame them), who hire a guide and get given the stuff but have no idea how to use any of it. The thing is, like with anything, where do you draw the line.....one way or another skiing is a potentially dangerous sport. Like I say, personally for me, I like to be in a position where the people I am skiing with have the skills and equipment to be able to find me if necessary, and me find them and the guide if need be. I'd feel awful if I was there in that unfortunate situation and was useless to anyone.
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As I see it, Recco is only useful for finding your corpse and is completely and utterly useless in finding someone in an avalanche as it takes too long.
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Good spot David Goldsmith.
You're correct in saying that powder avalanches are the most deadly. Slab avalanches, though, are responsible for the majority of deaths.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
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| Locating buried victims rapidly is a matter of life and death, and this is why avalanche rescue dogs are invaluable ... a dog team can transported to the search area in minutes by helicopter ... For the present, an avalanche dog is still the most reliable method of rescue ... |
This is maybe the most worthwhile bit of the article for discussion. How many ski resorts still have avalanche dogs? How do they rate against transceivers (or Recco)? |
We did some stuff on this on my BASI Mountain Safety Course last year. I can't remember the exact numbers, but...
You have a something a 99% chance of surviving and avalanche if you're not buried, but only a 50% chance of surviving an avalanche if you're buried. (There is some distinction in the stats about what constitutes "buried" that I can't remember. IIRC then "no part of the body visible, but ski sticking out" counts as buried.) This is why ABS type airbags are so valuable - they help keep you from being buried.
If you're buried then your chance of survival drops by (something like) 70% after 15 minutes.
The time taken to get first responders close to the scene varies hugely depending on how the alert is raised (mobile phone good, notification of pisteurs typically bad); whether the resort has a helicopter on permanent standby; how accurately the victims are able to give the location (we were encouraged to carry a GPS); whether the helicopter had a Recco detector (good) and the resort had a dog; and, finally, how close to the scene the helicopter can land - and whether it can land above (good) or below (generally bad).
We were told that a typical minimum to get first responders (including a dog) to the scene is 20 minutes. It typically takes a minimum of 10 minutes to get the responders to the scene after landing.
Recco detectors are particularly effective in large avalanches as, if the helicopter is equipped with an airborne unit, then they can greatly reduce the search area. We were told that on the ground they can be less effective as the Recco reflectors on non-victims can cause false readings.
(We were told that) On a simple head to head basis, then dogs are more effective at locating bodies than an experienced rescuer with a transceiver. This is primarily because dogs can cover ground more quickly and negotiate avalanche debris more effectively. Anyone who has skied across a large avalanche debris field will understand that it can be very difficult to move around in the debris. You do have to bear in mind that it's not the dog that does the digging and the speed of the dog is counteracted by the slowness of the people getting to the dog and starting probing.
The real issue with rescue by dog or Recco is that speed of deployment.
Self-rescue is by far your best chance of surviving an avalanche if buried. Unless you happen to have a rescue pup in your backpack then transceivers are more effective at saving lives.
It's worth remembering that, if you're buried, you have a 10-20% (ish) absolute chance of dying anyway because of the tauma - regardless of whether you're breathing or not.
(Apologies for the "ish"ness of the numbers - I'm in Morzine and the stuff is in London.)
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| The time taken to get first responders close to the scene varies hugely depending on how the alert is raised (..., notification of pisteurs typically bad); ... |
Thank you for the fascinating info FlyingStantoni. The text quoted above intrigued me, could you clarify the "notification of pisteurs typically bad" part? They are the people who respond, they all have radios and so should be able to summon help. So I guess I am missing something from your explanations.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Adrian, it might take 10 minutes or more to ski to the nearest pisteur's hut.
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Thanks rob@rar, I had pondered that but the original quote did not make it clear where the delay occurred. One reading of the words is that the pisteurs were causing the delay.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kelskii wrote: |
| Boris wrote: |
| brian wrote: |
| Kelskii wrote: |
| I think the dog arrived by helicopter and that took a while. |
Hey, go easy on the hound, have you ever tried to fly a chopper without the use of opposable thumbs ? |
Apparently the landing was a bit ruff |
Hey, he was a trained avalanche Retriever |
He was able to find the guy because he was wearing an avalanche bacon.
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That must be one of the most under researched articles I have ever seen.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Adrian, it might take 10 minutes or more to ski to the nearest pisteur's hut. |
And another 5-10 minutes to explain where the avalanche occurred.
I don't know about you, but my French isn't really up to describing some the locations I ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| .....I don't know about you, but my French isn't really up to describing some the locations I ski. |
But might be OK to give co-ordinates from your GPS? I almost never carry mine when I am skiing. Maybe I should when I am off-piste. Not just in case of anyone in the party being avalanched, but also for the more likely scenario for advising rescue services in event of an injury. Sure, they may be able to home in on a mobile phone - but that would depend on a signal being available immediately - and I don't know how good the accuracy would be.
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, that's exactly why I now carry a GPS. I'm sure that even if you read the location in English it would be ok.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, homing in by mobile phone is a non starter I'm afraid. There was an attempt to introduce a technology called EOTD in America a few years ago, so that people making emergency calls could be located (they get a huge number of calls from people who don't know where they are!). Unfortunately the technique, which relied on triangulation, simply didn't work well enough to be used for real. They couldn't satisfy the requirement that the person should be located with an accuracy of 50 meters. 50 meters in an avalanche situation is like half a world!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Steilhang, you're a bit out of date I'm afraid - the technology has moved on - certainly for GSM. In the UK there are number of services available that allow for fairly accurate tracking of a mobile. The emergency services can locate a mobile under certain circumstance.
But, (and if IIRC) the technology works best in relatively flat areas with small cells - i.e. not the mountains.
Starting point here for the interested.
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FlyingStantoni, don't think so! The only one that would be any use in the mountains is A-GPS, provided GPS works under a meter of snow, and you don't happen to be situated in a canyon. All the other ones have (at the very best ) an accuracy of about 50m, but in any kind of multpath situation will perform considerably worse. In most multipath situations, i.e in a city, the best you can achieve is about 200m. For OTD or E-OTD to work at all you need to be in sight of at least three base stations, for obvious reasons. If you happen to be only in the reflected path of a base station then your calculated position can be completely wrong, also for obvious reasons. Fact is that in the mountains you are almost always in a reflected path!
The trials of E-OTD were stopped because they simply couldn't satisfy the American E911 requirements with it. Cambride Positioning Systems, who owned most of the IP ( there wasn't much I in the IP ) effectively went out of business as a result!*
*Our signal processing guys at Bell Labs had said it wouldn't work from day one. They were right! AT&T preferred to listen to the chaps from Cambridge 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Back to the original article...
According to data in one of the books* I have there is a 2 in 3 chance of successful companion rescue compared to 1 in 6 for success with a dog if the victim is wearing a transceiver.
*http://www.amazon.co.uk/Powderguide-Managing-Avalanche-Tobias-Kurzeder/dp/0972482733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233675267&sr=8-1&tag=amz07b-21
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Swirly, I must admit that, same as your book says, I've always been under the impression that in the event of you being buried in an avalanche your best chance is for the people you've been skiing with (obviously equipped with transceivers, shovels and probes as well as the knowledge of how to use them properly) or skiers nearby to find you and dig you out the quickest. They are already on the scene after all so it must be quicker surely as long as they get on with it right away.
However, yes, I think that if there was an avalanche rescue dog and a bloke with a transceiver next to each other with a race against the clock to find an avalanche victim, I'm sure the dog would definitely be faster and more effective, one of the reasons being is that it can scoot over the terrain on it's 4 nimble legs a lot easier it being a sort of game to a dog, rather than a human who could be tired and possibly injured themselves and probably feeling a bit panicked trying to run round over the avalanche debris with skis on searching with their transceiver.
Obviously in the case of the human you would hope that there would be a few people looking at the same time.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Adrian, it might take 10 minutes or more to ski to the nearest pisteur's hut. |
Indeed and what happens if the would be messenger takes a fall on the way and loses a ski? It seems so often with any type of accident that one piece of misfortune can compound another.
Then we have numerous situations where the helicopter cannot fly. Just two weeks ago I was off piste in Engelberg with mountain guides. On one of those days we were skiing far from the piste when it was chucking it down with snow and another when although the visibility was good enough to ski, it would not have been good enough for a helicopter.
Rescue from your own group must be the best chance of survival.
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Steilhang - apologies, but I think we're talking at slightly crossed purposes and agreeing with each other.
I was (only) talking about its use in terms of using GSM triangulation to obtain the broad location of a group - in the "we haven't got a clue where we are situation".
I completely agree that it would be absolutely no use in pinpointing a burial.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Having seen a race between a Ski Patroler with a transceiver and trained avalanche dog I would put my money on the dog every time. I think that the patroller actually used the dogs behaviour to help in his search and the dog still was considerably faster. It was a great demonstration of the nose at work.
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| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| Having seen a race between a Ski Patroler with a transceiver and trained avalanche dog I would put my money on the dog every time. I think that the patroller actually used the dogs behaviour to help in his search and the dog still was considerably faster. It was a great demonstration of the nose at work. |
I would put my money on the dog as well in a "race" of that nature, but in real life how can you be sure of getting a dog to the accident in time?
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FAQ
(apparently for a few hours for their scent to fade - might need longer than that for some 
There was a set of kennels for the dogs at the top of the lift (up near the rock with a hole in it!) 
