 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What is the advice if this happens. Assuming you have no ropes etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof,
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| with a loop tied to your harness and clipped as high as possible (collar say) so you can be winched out easily. |
How does the 'high clip' work ? Does the rope go over the shoulder and back to the harness ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just in case anyone else has similarly lacking pwers of observation, watch the skier in yellow, six seconds in.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
davidof,
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| with a loop tied to your harness and clipped as high as possible (collar say) so you can be winched out easily. |
How does the 'high clip' work ? Does the rope go over the shoulder and back to the harness ? |
The large loop fixes to the loop in the front of your harness, just pull the rope back through the hole. On the small loop end put a non screwgate karabiner and clip this to a loop on your rucksack or collar so the rope hangs across your chest.
Of course, in theory, you should always ski glaciers roped up 
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| davidof wrote: |
| ...Of course, in theory, you should always ski glaciers roped up |
Not clear what you mean by that. When I have skied glaciers with guides I have worn a harness with a carabina - and the guide has had a rope. It is an interesting thought that the guy most likely to need being rescued by rope is the guide- who as lead person is at the most risk, and has the rope required to lift him out. It is also a thought that he may be the only person in the party with the rope skills required - it is an awfully long time since I did anything like that - and almost all my personal experience has been on rock rather than ice/snow.
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davidof, Cool. So the rescue guys would clip the rescue rope into the small loop as well, in case the clip to the sack\collar breaks ?
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Do we know if that person got rescued.
Those sort of piccies are quite sufficient reason not to ski off piste IMV.
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Totally agree with davidof I always ski glacial terrain with a sling from my harness to an (unfastened) locking carabiner on my rucksack shoulder strap. I would say 99% of the people you see on the VB have a belt on but only a few percent have the sling or longe as well. It doesn't take much imagination to visualise a situation where the extra flexibility of the 'extension' will make all the difference, especially when you think your movement could well be restricted by your immediate enviroment (and it certainly is by fear).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The system Davidof describes is a how a mountain guide *might* manage a group with no rope skills.
However it is an over simplification and not applicable to self guided groups who may have to 'self rescue'.
When skiing on a glacier skiers should be equipped with climbing harness plus single ice screw (on karabiner with short sling) & 2 prusik loops. The ice screw is used to prevent falling deeper into the crevasse should the worst happen. The prusik loops are then used to climb out of the crevasse on a rope which is lowered down by other group members.
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| It is an interesting thought that the guy most likely to need being rescued by rope is the guide- who as lead person is at the most risk, and has the rope required to lift him out. |
Yip - good point. Most guides are very cautious for this very reason. (Similar statement could be made about avalanches). Ideally you want the person with the rope to be skiing at the back of the group. Though for groups of 3 or more it is a good idea to have a second rope.
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| Of course, in theory, you should always ski glaciers roped up |
Not true. Traveling downhill on skis whilst roped up is very difficult (and has its own dangers).
When traveling by ski you effectively weigh 9 times less than a person of foot - so the chances on falling in a crevasse are much reduced.Though climbers on foot should always be roped up at all times on a glacier.
The skier in yellow looked very unlucky to me, as there appears to be a good track in. However it is a good demonstration of what can happen.
Check Jimmy Odens book for a more detailed explanation of glacier travel on skis.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 27-03-12 9:41; edited 4 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I can visualise that harness, loop arrangement - it sounds an excellent idea. I read so much about you off piste folks skiing with your probes and transceivers that I forget you must take other gear as well.
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Here was me thinking I was getting over my fear of crevasses!!!
I really want to ski the VB one day, but I need to get away from my fear of falling down big deep dark holes
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You know it makes sense.
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| I can visualise that harness, loop arrangement - it sounds an excellent idea. |
^ however that system depends on a pulley system being set up on the surface to haul your ass out.
this is actually quite complicated and also very hard work.
assuming the person in the crevasse is uninjured it is much easier & quicker for them to climb out themselves using prusik loops.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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TBH I had assumed it was a pisted glacier on which very few people would have any equipment. So going by what had been said above if it happens on a pisted glacier, call someone or go to the nearest lifty?
Or are pisted glaciers checked frequently enough to prevent this?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, I've just looked those up on WikiP. Both those and the ice screw (which I also looked up) seem to imply that the person that has fallen has sufficient room to move their arms and deploy them - yes? I assume those loops work by putting them both around another rope and supporting weight on one whilst you slide the second up the rope then reversing that and sliding the other one upwards?
Sorry folks, just idle curiosity from an onlooker - sometimes its just interesting to read about what other folks get up to.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Those sort of piccies are quite sufficient reason not to ski off piste IMV. |
Not an issue if you are skiing off-piste away from a glacier (although there are some exceptions to this such as Flaine bowl where there are large holes in the chalk rock). Skiing off-piste on a glacier is a different ball game altogether and I wouldn't do it without a guide.
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More like a blue run in terms of steepness, I'd have said.
I did a course on ski rope work, including crevasse rescue and nobody mentioned the longe.
I rather doubt if that would have happened if the person hadn't been snow-plowing violently. A light touch and keeping going is good where there might be crevasses.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
Do we know if that person got rescued.
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If it is the incident I'm thinking of it took two guides to get the person out.
> I did a course on ski rope work, including crevasse rescue and nobody mentioned the longe.
what conclusions do you draw from that?
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Varying steepness from black to green depending on exact route. But never seen van sized moguls with glacial ice on the backside of them on any piste, as there were a couple of weeks ago. Seemed to be at points where a lot of the routes converged, down the side of glacier where there were lots of seracs.
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| snowball wrote: |
| More like a blue run in terms of steepness, I'd have said. |
Next time, if you ski well enough, you might be able to persuade your guide to take you on one of the variations, which certainly aren't of a blue-run steepness 
| kennyNI wrote: |
| ...never seen van sized moguls with glacial ice on the backside of them on any piste, as there were a couple of weeks ago. |
These are usually a feature of the Tunnel run at AdH, particularly on the exit of the tunnel, I believe it's on a mini-glacier up there and it's certainly often icy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
> I did a course on ski rope work, including crevasse rescue and nobody mentioned the longe.
what conclusions do you draw from that? |
I was on the same course. One of the lads taking it did mention it to me, but it wasn't referred to on the course proper. What conclusion should we draw??
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
What conclusion should we draw?? |
I wonder if the people giving the course were more into alpinism than skiing. No reason not to wear a longe when climbing, mountaineering but often climbers are roped both up and down so it could be seen as redundant.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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A friend flipped his board on a crevasee on the VB a few years back. Dangled from the bindings upside for quite a while over the entrance to Hades...
Since then he's had a midlife crisis and changed wives... not saying the events are linked... think his wife made the call...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| More like a blue run in terms of steepness, I'd have said. |
Next time, if you ski well enough, you might be able to persuade your guide to take you on one of the variations, which certainly aren't of a blue-run steepness
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I think I've done most of the variants but those are not what was meant by the OP.
The course was run by climbers, you are quite right davidof
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Haggis_Trap, That's a really interesting site - lots of small things that just wouldn't occur until reading and then they make good common sense - like running the rescue rope over the handle of the ice axe so it doesn't dig into the ice. The description of how the two skis could be used to make an anchor in the snow was intesting too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, you can use ski poles if you haven't an axe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mosha Marc, yes, you could couldn't you...........or walking poles if you were hiking and had to pass a rope over a rocky edge I guess.
I've got a partial interest as I still have visions of falling off the edge of the path when we went walking a year or so ago. If I hadn't been stopped by my elbow (which ended up some stunning colours once the cuts healed) I'd have gone another 30 + foot onto rocks. Since then, although I've walked since and it's yet another thing to carry, I've wondered if there was any wisdom in carrying some sort of rope and appropriate clips and maybe learning some sort of supporting skills. I've always taken notice of things like the dangers of exposure - and we always carry all the recommended hill walking kit, but falling taught me that even though you think you are on a well worn path one wrong step when you are tired can have severe repercussions. I know we have experienced and knowledgable folks on SH's who are contributing to this thread maybe you could tell me if this is worth doing (particuarly on walks in more exposed locations) and if so, given that I would have to lug it what sort of minimal kit (weight wise) might be useful assuming I learned what to do with it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| Megamum, you can use ski poles if you haven't an axe. |
or Germans
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
A friend flipped his board on a crevasee on the VB a few years back. Dangled from the bindings upside for quite a while over the entrance to Hades...
Since then he's had a midlife crisis and changed wives... not saying the events are linked... think his wife made the call... |
Is the new wife hot though?
And can she ski (or, better still, tolerate him skiing without her)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Was that a guided party? I hope it wasn't. That crevasse was very obvious and they were clearly on a snow bridge. Yet the guy in the lead didn't give it a second glance, at no point did he even look around at the people behind him, he wasn't even aware that someone had fallen in.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
What is the advice if this happens. Assuming you have no ropes etc.
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Slap yourself around the head for being an utter fanny?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How is it obvious? I'm genuinely interested to know, I've not done much glacier skiing.
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stevomcd, 
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You can see it right at the start of the clip. Huge hole to the left and another to the right. Holes that big don't just stop they connect up under the snow bridge.
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assuming the person in the crevasse is uninjured it is much easier & quicker for them to climb out themselves using prusik loops.
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Does this require dropping your skis so that you prussik up just in your boots? Gets you out of the crevasse, but you are then ski-less?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The idea is,
Take off skis and clip them to rucsack (it helps if you have something to attach a crabiner to).
Your friends on the surface set up a belay and pass you an end of a rope.
If your not going to slip further down the hole you can use the rope to get rid of the rucsack and skis.
or, you tie onto the rope and then clip your rucsack to the rope then take it off.
Put your prussiks/clamps onto the rope and climb out.
In practice it's not quite so straight forward.
Alternatively your friends on the surface could use an assisted hoist or if you can't help, because your injured or wedged fast, they'll have to use an un-assisted hoist i.e. some sort of pulley system. This can all get quite complicated if you haven't practiced it beforehand your stuffed. if it's your guide down the hole with the rope he's stuffed.
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OwenM,
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Take off skis and clip them to rucsack (it helps if you have something to attach a crabiner to).
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If your not going to slip further down the hole you can use the rope to get rid of the rucsack and skis.
or, you tie onto the rope and then clip your rucsack to the rope then take it off.
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Put your prussiks/clamps onto the rope and climb out.
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Observation from uneducated onlooker - I would assume if you have fallen into a crevasse that your predicament is probably that of being wedged somehow and probably with little scope for manouvering - all the items above would seem to me to require quite a degree of 'elbow room' and dexterity - would they really be the sorts of actions that the stuck person could realistically carry out?
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FAQ
