 Poster: A snowHead
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In years gone by, we have always looked forward to the Winter Olympics but in all honesty, I hope this is a huge flop. I apologise to competitors and brave spectators but that is how I feel. I think the deciding factor for me was when I heard an interview on 5 Live between Sam Walker and the director of the Institute of Political Studies in Moscow Sergey Markov who says he believes gay people should take 'special medicine' My wife and myself both hope that snow will be in short supply in Sochi.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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alan_1951, that's a bit harsh on the athletes given the winter Olympics is the pinnacle of their skiing careers.
I'd like there to be great snow, great racing and some great podium protests!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I said I apologise to the athletes and it may sound harsh. I just think that countries should earn the right to hold huge events. I just heard on the news that Russia are hoping that the Olympics will be a springboard for Russia to re-brand themselves as a modern country.
Maybe on reflection, I take back my comments about the snow. I just feel that Russia should not have been given the Olympics in the first place.
I am also dismayed at the fact that Quatar are staging the world cup in 2022. How on earth did that happen? I am old enough to remember 1966 and I am sad that I will probably not experience another in the UK in my lifetime.
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| Quote: |
How on earth did that happen?
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erm backhanders?
Every country that could host an Olympics has some kind of political issue that does not conform to our ideals. Or our ideals do not conform with those of one or more competing nations. Even London 2012.
So the ramblings of a politcal guy and the holding of a 4-yearly sporting event are completely unrelated imho. Except for within media corporations who want to *make* a story and sell papers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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While I agree with the sentiment, don't forget its only been 10 years since the repeal of Section 28. Personally, I hope for a great and fair games, and should individuals such as Mr Markov wish to trumpet their outdated beliefs, in the interest of free speech let them... Let them also be exposed to the withering scorn, and howls of derision and ridicule they rightly deserve.
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Think it's possible to hope that Sochi will be a sporting success whilst also being a massive embarrassment to Russia too. It will put Russia in the spotlight, and what the world sees is unlikely to be pleasant. Corruption, repression, bigotry, endemic failure, and a paucity of hope. Hope they enjoy wasting their mineral wealth, as there'll not be much left to the fabric of their society when it's been squandered and stolen by the thugs in charge.
Sad thing is, I know a number of charming, educated, and modern thinking Russians who are sad and angry with the state of the place. As to the lads I spent a evening chatting to in a St. Petersburg gay bar a few years ago, I just shudder to think of how their lives must be, living in that poisonous air. Still, we lived through some stupid laws in the UK and things got better in the end. Though our political system wasn't broken, ultimately it repairs itself. Doesn't seem much hope for Russia.
Let's hope for great sport, and so much embarrassment for Russia that it fosters some change.
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^ Sporting events should never be used as a political tool.
Though I would add the UK is hardly perfect. Nor should they be trying to impose western values on other nations.
Take for example the premier league football. Only 10/15 years ago abuse of black players (john barnes) or gay players (justin fashanu) was common and accepted.
By the argument's given England should never have hosted the world cup in 1966.
Good luck to the Russians. I am sure they will put on a great winter games.
It is right that these event are spread around the globe.
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| Quote: |
Good luck to the Russians. I am sure they will put on a great winter games.
It is right that these event are spread around the globe.
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and a good Formula 1 event too (think that's next year? or 2015? also in Sochi)
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andy, And the World Cup in 2018, formula 1 is actually 2014, conversion of the Olypic cluster starts straight after the games finish.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Andy
a politcal guy and the holding of a 4-yearly sporting event are completely unrelated imho It was an interview relating solely to the Winter Olympics.
Richard Sideways
" Let them also be exposed to the withering scorn, and howls of derision and ridicule they rightly deserve" HEAR HEAR
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not a fan of certain Russian views and behaviours re racism and homosexuality but I think we all know that certain groups in society hold views we might consider abhorent - Westboro Baptist Church & the like, certain churches in Africa/Latin America. I still think the athletes shouldn't be punished for attitudes in the host country and actually their is a platform for significant education - athletes can easily wear rainbow wristbands on the podium or drape themselves in national and rainbow flags after victory. Think of Tommie Smith, John Carlos and Peter Norman (whose role in the iconic moment shouldn't be forgotten).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Though I would add the UK is hardly perfect. Nor should they be trying to impose western values on other nations. |
I guess its okay if they're just disenfranchising and phsyically assaulting their own gays, right? Is homophobic violence a value we should respect in other cultures? On a related note, is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights a list of western values?
Simply not holding the event in Russia as a result of their cultural mores would seem to be a reasonable solution, if you're not willing to suggest that some actions are objectively abhorrent. They can keep their quaint gaybashing traditions, but only at the expense of being able to host the winter olympics. Fair's fair, eh?
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Take for example the premier league football. Only 10/15 years ago abuse of black players (john barnes) or gay players (justin fashanu) was common and accepted. |
Just out of interest, how much state-sanctioned violence was there in the UK, against folk who weren't white heterosexuals, 10-15 years ago?
I wonder if sportspeople who come out as homosexual in Russia would fall afoul of their delightful new propaganda laws.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| By the argument's given England should never have hosted the world cup in 1966. |
If you're willing to supply a time machine, perhaps the decision could be overturned. Y'know, the IOC once held an event in a fascist dictatorship, so I guess that makes every single one of their future decisions morally justifable.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ Is the USA a morally acceptable venue to hold Olympics games ?
.... and by whose morals ?
Russia may have what we consider to be outdated laws and views on LGBT (etc).
However you are making the mistake of
1) Imposing your own western values upon the rest of the world.
2) Using a sporting event to make a political point.
| Quote: |
| Boycotting the Sochi Olympics is the wrong answer, not only that, it is a short sighted response that does not appear to involve much regard for the actual people who would be most impacted by a boycott.Who are those people? The athletes" |
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-fearnhead/why-stephen-fry-is-wrong-_b_3737203.html
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 7-11-13 11:57; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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The long and short of it is, that it’s a crappy decision but it won’t be changed now. Any nation you give an Olympic event to you could accuse of state sponsored something or other from somebodies views, I am sure there are plenty of people who thought London should not get the Olympics last year due to UK involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan or its state sanctioned Human rights abuses in NI, that have only recently started to be dealt with.
The reality is the Olympics has to be held somewhere, and instead of calling for Boycotts and banishment lobby groups should use it as an opportunity to highlight their issues in a creative and effective way. Athletes should be left to make their own choices and focus on what they are there to do compete.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Boycotting the Sochi Olympics is the wrong answer, not only that, it is a short sighted response that does not appear to involve much regard for the actual people who would be most impacted by a boycott. Who are those people? The corporate sponsors." |
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Fixed it for you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ for sure : the olympics has become very commercial and big business.
however using the games to make (western) political points simply deviate's even further from the Olympic sporting ideal.
the simple answer : don't confuse politics and sport
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Haggis_Trap, sorry but I really have to take issue with your comment that "Only 10/15 years ago abuse of black players (john barnes) or gay players (justin fashanu) was common and accepted". For one thing the abuse of Fashanu was 30 years ago and the abuse of players like Barnes was more like 25+ years ago. Secondly it wasn't "accepted", it was part of a bigger hooligan problem that wasn't really tackled until the early 90s but since then incidents of racism in English football has declined massively.
I'm always confused when people say that Olympics/World Cups and politics shouldn't mix. Countries like China, Russia and Qatar want these events precisely because of politics. They want to brand their countries on the international scale.
Of course the other reason to want Sochi to fail has been the gross and corrupt levels of spending.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Dont kid yourself : If anything the UK is only about 20 to 30 years ahead of Russia in terms of LGBT rights and racism.
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| I'm always confused when people say that Olympics/World Cups and politics shouldn't mix |
Because it is an international sporting contest, nothing more, nothing less.
By the arguments made only nations which hold western values should be allowed to host or compete in Olympics & World Cups.
It would be easy to find reasons not to invite China, Russia, Brazil, India, Oman, South Africa (etc).....
However then its no longer a world sporting event.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 7-11-13 12:16; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Is the USA a morally acceptable venue to hold Olympics games ?
.... and by whose morals ? |
Buncha warmongering nuclear armed chronic spies who lock up a huge proportion of the young, black men in their country and force them to make kitchen appliances? Foreign internment camps where they hold people without trial and without legal counsel? Their own rather puritan attitudes to homosexuality? Dunno, tricky question.
I wouldn't vote for em.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
However you are making the mistake of
1) Imposing your own western values upon the rest of the world. |
Aha, western values again. Its wonderful than an opposition to oppression and homophobic violence can be seen as cultural imperialism! You didn't answer my earlier question by the way... is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights a list of western values? Do you really feel that there are no actions which are objectively wrong?
As I said, we could leave them to continue exercising their own cultural sovereignty, but just not host the winter olympics there. Exactly what right do they have to host the event regardless of all other actions, just out of interest?
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| 2) Using a sporting event to make a political point. |
It is already making a political point. It says that despite the fact that the Russian government is acting in a vile and oppressive fashion, we'll tolerate that so long as we all get to go skiing together. The teams that are taking part whilst wearing rainbow coloured uniforms are making a political point. The promises that are being extracted from the Russian government regarding the legal status of gay athletes competing in the events are a political point. What makes those political points acceptable to you?
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^ Were the recent London Olympics a global endorsement of Tony Blairs crusade against weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ?
Clearly not.
Refer back to points 1 + 2. Mixing political beliefs with sport is a big mistake. Where do you draw the line ?
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| Quote: |
Mixing political beliefs with sport is a big mistake.
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So you would not have had a problem with rugby/cricket sides touring South Africa under apartheid? Not insinuating anything there - just curious. That one is generally felt to have worked reasonably well as sport mattered to those on the receiving end. IMV sporting boycotts are a legitimate tactic where someone's society is both sufficiently objectionable (and frankly I can live with accusations of cultural imperialism here) and where it has a good chance of achieving the desired result - obviously in tandem with other tactics.
I think we're close with #1 and way off with #2. I suspect that change is going to have to come from within in Russia on this one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ Were the recent London Olympics a global endorsement of Tony Blairs crusade against weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ? |
Was there an international outcry against hosting the Olympics in the UK? I must confess that I did not pay a whole lot of attention to the selection process, but I don't recall hearing about one. This situation is rather different, wouldn't you say?
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Refer back to points 1 + 2. Mixing political beliefs with sport is a big mistake. Where do you draw the line ? |
Why is it a mistake?
The line is very clearly drawn where the IOC feel they can tolerate the actions of a prospective host country. Had the Russians rounded up and shot every homosexual who was 'out', I suspect the event may have been held elsewhere; certainly there would be more countries boycotting the event.
The selection process represents what the IOC find acceptable. The Olympic charter cares about descrimination on the basis of race, gender, religion and politics... homophobia is entirely acceptable to the IOC, so they don't see the choice of Sochi as a problem. They're also talking about enforcement of article 50 of the charter to punish athletes who protest against the actions of the Russian government... however that might be defined. Rainbow shirts? Off home with you. Good times!
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^ The IOC are in no way condoning Russia's view point on LBGT rights (that is not their role!)
They are simply saying that Sochi is a good venue with facilities and infrastructure that can host a winter Olympics.
You are getting emotive by confusing 2 very different issues.
RE : South Africa. A good point to raise. Clearly each case needs to be considered on its own merits.
Though at that time other economic and political sanctions were also in place in protest against apartheid.
A sporting boycott wasn't the primary tool being used.
I would ask if China should have been allowed to host the summer games in 2008 given their questionable human rights issues ?
Or do we keep the Olympics for a select list of western nations with political beliefs that align with exactly with our own ideals ?
Which is what some people seem to be proposing...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Tirol wrote: |
| ...Of course the other reason to want Sochi to fail has been the gross and corrupt levels of spending. |
(emphasis added).
Why would any fan of winter sports want Sochi Games to fail 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the best place to protest against anti gay rights and corruption is on a podium at the Olympics. An impressive stage to tell the world, you're the best athletes in your field and you don't agree with what the hosts are doing.
Politics and Sports go together unfortunately. If they didn't, most major sporting comps would not even get off the ground.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 7-11-13 13:18; edited 1 time in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ The IOC are in no way condoning Russia's view point on LBGT rights (that is not their role!)
They are simply saying that Sochi is a good venue with facilities and infrastructure that can host a winter Olympics. |
They are also simply stating that it is acceptable for their athletes to be subject to Russian law during the duration of the event. Could they do this if Russian law was in opposition to the Olympic charter? Seems unlikely. Happily, the Olympic charter does not consider discrimination on the basis of sexuality, ergo, the IOC have no problem with the Russian stance on the matter.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Or do we keep the Olympics for a select list of western nations with political beliefs that align with exactly with our own ideals ?
Which is what some people seem to be proposing... |
Acceptance of homosexuality is not a purely western cultural ideal.
Opposition to state-sponsored violence, discrimination and oppression of a section of a country's population is not a purely western cultural ideal.
You seem to be blowing the cultural imperialism trumpet a lot; it isn't relevant.
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You know it makes sense.
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^ by your own argument's China should not have been allowed to host the summer games in 2008 either ?
true or false ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ by your own argument's China should not have been allowed to host the summer games in 2008 either ?
true or false ? |
Woah there chief. You don't get to demand answers until you've cleared up some of the questions asked of you above 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ by your own argument's China should not have been allowed to host the summer games in 2008 either ?
true or false ? |
Woah there chief. You don't get to demand answers until you've cleared up some of the questions asked of you above |
I have answered all question's with my belief that sporting events should not be hijacked by governments or used for political purposes.
No one is suggesting Russia are right on this issue : however there are more appropriate platforms to make your views known than a boycott.
China has a far worse human rights record than Russia.
Once more I would ask : Should China have been allowed to host the summer games ?
They clearly put on a successful sporting event during Bejing 2008 that the rest of the world enjoyed.
Hosting Olympic games and World cup's should not be the preserve of a limited list of western nations.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Hosting Olympic games and World cup's should not be the preserve of a limited list of western nations. |
Good grief 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The official Sochi uniform... delightfully rainbow... I say no more...
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| The official Sochi uniform... delightfully rainbow... I say no more... |
I thought that when it popped up on the twitter feed last week. The german one just looks a bit tie dye hot water tank.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
you could make an argument for almost for every country outside of Europe / USA and Australia not being suitable hosts due to political or moral issues.
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I could say you could include Europe /USA and Australia depending on your perspective.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Russia, China and the USA = a huge chunk of the worlds population you just excluded from the party... |
I wonder what proportion of the world's population is gay.
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Politics and sport are intrinsically mixed, the very idea of an Olympics is intrinsically political - bringing together all nations in the spirit of competition presumably with an objective of settling scores/demostrating supremacy on the playing field rather than battlefield.
Guess we'll never know but it could be that the pressure valve afforded to the US and Eastern Bloc in the ability to compete on athletic grounds during the Cold War saved us from far worse consequences.
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