 Poster: A snowHead
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But seriously, looking at the various ski tour options they refer to height gain per day and I'm trying to get a feeling to compare it to hillwalking or biking. For example I'd suggest a single Munro type hill would be pretty easy to walk up, and so 900m gain would be fine. A hard day mountain biking would be around 2400m ascent and I've never done more than 3500m per day even on the road. Is it harder work skinning up that distance than walking, or is the difficulty that you do it with a 10kg rucksack for 6 consecutive days?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just roll, tuck, and keep it tight...
But seriously, You've got the weight of boot, binding and ski on each foot - that makes a difference (especially as at the end of the lever).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TheGeneralist, Hmmm, i don't know if it helps but back when I was quite fit I found climbing from Jackson Hole level to 11,000 feet and skiing down quite exhausting. Still good the next day however...
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Intro to off piste skiing / skinning type trips our school offers; I aim for maximum of 500 vertical metres in a day in typical conditions. Super fit and experienced and you could double or possibly triple that but no more. For example here in Val d'Isere the 'intro' Tour de Mont Roup is a comfortable 4 hours round trip and something like 350m-400m climbing... I have taken people in their 60's on that comfortably for their first outing and it is about right in my experience.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I reckon 1,000m to 1,200m per day is enough when you're carrying all your gear. No week-long tour I've done has covered much more vertical than this each day (although the hard-core people in the same huts from local ski clubs go waaaaay further, taking in a summit or two and thinking nothing of it). Not overdoing it means not tooo early a start, no need to charge up the mountain and if you're lucky you might get a reasonable descent - as well as limiting (hopefully) the blister-count and allowing you enough sunbathing and/or beer time when you get to the hut... Biking/walking - impossible to compare.
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We're relatively new to ski touring and back 2 weeks ago from our third multi-day tour - 5 days/4 nights in the Silvretta, Austria. It was absolutely fantastic - a highly recommended area.
Mrs MA and I are fit through regular mountain biking and other activities and are in our late forties. On the ski touring trip above, we were skinning for up to 4 hours at a rate of 300m per hour - which (I think) is similar to what we do on summer hut to hut multi-day trips in the Alps with about 12kg packs. Over the 5 days we generally skinned between 900-1200 metres.
We have normal touring bindings (ie Fritschi as opposed to the featherweight Dynafit set up) and would say that the first time you ski tour (or do it again after a season or two's gap!), the shock to the system is the weight of the boots/skis on every step - probably more than twice the weight of hiking boots. Because of that, it is definitely tougher than walking with a pack - and definitely harder than when you see ski tourers seemingly skinning effortlessly up the mountain! Add to that the weight of your pack, which will be at least 8kg for a few days spent in huts, and it's a fairly demanding proposition. It seems that no matter how little you try to take, the pack (with shovel, probe, crampons, spare clothes, kit and food) always feels like a killer weight the first time you put it on! Another factor is that skiing downhillwith a heavy pack comes as a shock - it initially feels like it will tip you back and makes your legs ache - but you get used to it.
Having said that, we've found that the guide leads the way and generally goes at a modest, constant pace with stops every hour or so for drinks, snacks etc - which we find to be fine. You soon settle into it and get used to the skis, boots and pack - plus you get fitter as you acclimatise to the altitude and get used to the exertion.
The company we used last time (Icicle Mountaineering) recommended good aerobic fitness - so we got up to 5 mile training runs before we went - which definitely helped.
All in all, it's a completely different way of spending time in the mountains - completely away from it all for days, to the extent that getting back to civilisation feels odd! We love it - though we do still love normal (lift assisted) skiing too!
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Two other points to add...
First, it's not all simple uphill walking with skis on. The climbing can be a bit technical, especially kick turns and traversing steep ground in variable snow conditions.
Second, pretty obvious, you have to be able to ski pretty well and by that I'd say better than in a resort. Nothing that is pisted should phase you. More often than not, the conditions will not be perfect so you can oscillate between powder, crust or heavy snow. Usually there is a some forestry work which means being able to avoid the trees!!
We're relatively new to it but you get far more exercise touring than in a resort and you get to places that are simply too beautiful for words.
Go for it.
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All depends how mashed you are
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In chamonix an easy tour might have 500-600m of accent, which equates to a couple of hours skinning, or a walk up an easy Munro. A tougher one might be 1000m which will be 3-4 hours skinning plus the decent, equivalent to a Munro circuit. A hard day 1300-1750 (mont blanc) would be the Skye ridge plus. Factor in altitude, over packed sac, difficulties with kick turns or poor skiing down and you can add to that. With multi day stuff not getting blisters or other knocks needs to also be factored in. If you are with a guide he will try and gauge your comfort. Pro tip don't be the least fit in the group. Compitance geting the skins on and off etc can save a lot of time.
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Kevin Byrne: Excellent additional points! Obvious really! Our guide on the last trip referred to the frustration of skiing with 3 decent skiers plus 1(!!) on a ski tour where they had powder every day. He was telling us that, looking back... 'Zere was 3 sets of beautiful tracks....and one where ze child has taken ze pen and done zis!'.... (Cue frenzied scribbling action!)
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| Competence geting the skins on and off etc can save a lot of time |
Funny that!! We have previously had issues with super-quick and super-efficient guides being narked when we haven't been ready 'on the dot' to depart on a morning or have stopped for photos etc - so had honed our skills to the max for the last trip - no late starts and rapid skin removal and fitting. Nevertheless, the guide still managed to tell us that 'One of ze first words I learn in English eeez...faffing!' We found that really annoying 
After experiencing 3 guides, I really think that they are a breed apart. After touring most days they are bound to be better organised than their seemingly hapless clients - but they are apparently unwilling/unable to make any allowances for that....Anyway, we are prepared to overlook the shortcomings on the basis that safety is the watchword - and it won't put us off ski touring, which we love. Would love to find a nice, tolerant, easy going guide though!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I see about 1000m per day as "par" for a hut to hut touring week
i am by no means superfit but I have done days up to 1600m of height gain. a lot depends on the type of terrain. that soft of height gain on a nicely graded skin track isn't too bad. if you're skeetering up a steep slope with couteaux on the whole time, it will be much more tiring
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 23-03-12 13:00; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Loads of great info there, thanks. Your comments seem to be saying it is significantly harder than walking the same height gain, so if I do find a course to do then I'll pick an easier one.
Also, What is a kick turn?
I assume it is what you do at the end of an uphill zig in order to change direction to go up the next zag? How is it done?
cheers
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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3500m altitude on a bike in a day is a lot, you must have a very high level of fitness. Although this will help, you use the muscles differently for biking than for ski touring. It's also different then with hill walking. You don't roll the feet in a soft walking shoe remaining vertical but stride up the hill like robocop as if in sticky boots and are often at 90 deg to the hill. I suspect this works the quads differently and the hamstrings more.
Although I mountain bike thoughout the summer, to get my body ready for ski touring in the Autumn I generally put on my stiff walking boots (crampon compatible mountain boots) and walk directly up the fall line of a very steep local road with a heavy rucksack.
The other thing you have to think about is the altitude. Skinning up from 3000m to 3500m is a lot harder than 1000m to 1500m and in Spring you generally need to go higher for the snow. Higher altitude hill running is also great training for ski touring. I once ski-toured with a couple of very fit English guys - they would run up and down Scaffel Pike twice in a day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
| 3500m altitude on a bike in a day is a lot, you must have a very high level of fitness. |
Nope, it nearly killed me. Etape Du Dales last year. Took me over 10 hours... But very pleased to finish.
As training did the loop from Keswick down Borrowdales over Hnister pass over Newlands round to Keswick, twice, then reversed it, twice then went back up Honister again and straight back down. Happy days.
Totally agree that it will be a different muscle set to skinnin.
cheers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TheGeneralist,
What's very important is not just how much altitude you do in a day but how quick the pace is. Tours I have done in over 4 hours with English and Austrian friends I've seen locals do in half the time. At a push I might have managed 3 hours but trying to acheive 2 hours would have killed me. If you get a bit of hill running in and don't end up in a superfit group then you should be fine. I'd imagine you are fitter than most Brits who go on an introduction to touring trip. As others have said your technique needs to be up to offpiste (not just powder but crud etc too) as picking yourself up every five mins is tiring too.
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I've not done this skinning up before, but I have considered it. I have climbed 900m with skis and boots in a rucksack on my back. That is fairly tiring, but if the conditions you are climbing are steep variable ice, packed snow, and deep snow then wearing skis with skins will not really help much.
I would then descend about 500m, and climb back up, descend again, climb back up, and do the last descent of the day.
Skins would only really have been useful if there was more snow, and less steep terrain.
Of course, I am about to be contradicted by skinning experts soon.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 23-03-12 13:50; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bigtipper,
Skiinning is generally easier than booting up.
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unless there is a nice firm bootpack in or you are walking on snow with no "give" at all, skinning is easier
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| Quote: |
That is fairly tiring, but if the conditions your are climbing are steep variable ice, packed snow, and deep snow then wearing skis with skins will not really help much.
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Skins are good on most snow types I'd say - and the extra surface area of skis (regardless of skins attached) make them much easier to make progress than boots in deep snow. Stops the "in up to your hip" moments that wind me up so much on a bootpack. 
Edited as am a typing malco
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 23-03-12 11:59; edited 1 time in total
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| TheGeneralist wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| 3500m altitude on a bike in a day is a lot, you must have a very high level of fitness. |
Nope, it nearly killed me. Etape Du Dales last year. Took me over 10 hours... But very pleased to finish.
As training did the loop from Keswick down Borrowdales over Hnister pass over Newlands round to Keswick, twice, then reversed it, twice then went back up Honister again and straight back down. Happy days.
Totally agree that it will be a different muscle set to skinnin.
cheers |
Did 3,200m on the Pendle Predator last yeear over 115 miles, most painful cycle I've ever done. However, had struggled with 2 hours of skinning earlier in the year - mainly due to lack of competence at kick turns.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Where I go there is usually a well trodden path all the way to the top of the hill, and deep up to the waist moments only really occur for short spells of 10m -20m. Hardly worth getting skins for, you are much better off with some crampons or ice gripping boot attachments.
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I'm finding it exhausting just reading this thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How difficult? Well tour I did yesterday proved pretty tricky as the snow was still frozen from the night freeze, I slipped on 2 turns, really not very pleasant going down with heels free and getting back up can be booger. Took 2 first time ski tourers out last week, about 350m up in a slowish 1:15. One of them is a runner, in training for London marathon, he was a little shocked how physically hard it was, though they did have heavy alpine boots and were over dressed.
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We did an intro to touring day on the SOPB last week with Nick Parks.
About 6 or 700m of ascent from Col du Lauteret to Galibier - took 3 hours to get up and about 20 mins down !!
For 2 of us it was first ever skin ..... very tiring and my heels had both blistered within an hour ..... and that was in my own fitted Garmont Endorphin boots.
All in all - it was uncomfortable, exhausting, busier than I had expected but fun, fab scenery and I would do it again ...... boof fit and comfort is absolutely essential. I have awkward shaped feet so lots of boot remoulding - fit fine for downhill but clearly need a bit more work for uphill ..... or as Nick said once they have blistered a few times the skin will toughen up !
My main plan for touring in future is side country off piste access rather than longer distances.
I was on rented Black Crow Orbs with Fritchi Freerides - I have a set of Barons which I am planning to use next season .... just deciding what to mount them on.
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You know it makes sense.
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You can do it two ways the very tiring way or the not so tiring way. The first involves heading blindly up the hill with poor technique and the second planning a good track and having good technique.
Good skinning technique involves having the ski in contact with the snow most of the time and also gliding the ski up the existing skin track. Lots of people tramp along lifting the ski with every step and pushing snow about with it. Setting a good skin track is a bit more of an art form as you need to worry about overhead danger and avalanche danger as well as setting an easy line. Less steep is obviously less tiring. The other thing to do is make sure you switch lead so one person isn't always breaking trail which is particularly tiring in any kind of snow with ski penetration.
It's comparable in difficulty with winter walking on foot but obviously you get to ski downhill!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PBJ, I find having good socks prevents blisters. I have some which give me blisters really easy and others that I don't even get hot spots with. Thinnish wool in my case seems to be a winner.
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you're serious about touring / ski-mountaineering you want to be on Dynafit type bindings. The difference over the course of a day / multiple days is substantial - c. 1 kg less than the likes of Fritschi / Marker. 1 kg on your foot makes a big, big difference.
Make sure you're sliding the ski rather than lifting it with each movement. You should be able to manage between 300 - 500m of ascent / hour.
If you want to see the super-fit in action go and watch the Pierra Menta in the Beaufortain (on last w/e) 10,000m of ascent in 4 days! You can also learn how to remove your skins in one movement without removing your skis!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Makes a big difference to how hard the ascent is, what height you start ascending from.
To my lungs anyway. The only significant up I've done on skis started at 3200m, & and it was a gasper.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nice ear-muffs 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| altis wrote: |
Nice ear-muffs |
Nice muffs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| altis wrote: |
Nice ear-muffs |
Nice muffs. |
Nice.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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carbon_copy, Many resorts ban skinning on the piste, but there is always somewhere to practice ask a piste security guy. Very far sightedly les houches has signed a skinning track right from the bottom to the top some 800m of accent, it's an upside down kandahar, I have seen people skin up and get the lift down.
There is a lot to learn, skiing, skinning, navigation, avalanche awareness, crevasse rescue etc. best done on a course or in the company of knowledgable friends.
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jbob, not sure that ski touring is verboten in Austria on piste, but have read it's starting to be questioned. There seems to be an increase in number of tourers going uphill on piste and has caused some accidents. There are general piste regulations that mean most piste are closed outside of 8am to 5pm. However I doubt that's enforced much. I was touring up at around 6pm on a piste a few days ago, the piste bashers were out as well as other tourers and there are huts that stay open into the evening up on the slopes, thus drawing tourers up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tomow92, great info cheers 
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