The recent death by collision with a cannon prompted the following thought.
F1 was a nightmare of unnecessary deaths before Jackie Stewart started his campaign - and although called a coward by many people he seriously improved the sport. There was another burst of sensible measures after terrible deaths at Le Mans (Bonnier etc) and then again after Senna's death on a 190mph corner into an unprotected concrete wall.
Most pistes are littered with obstacles - lift installations, cannons, etc etc. And people have said that they shouldn't be there in a thread this week. I think that's wrong-headed.
But there's a key difference. We expect F1 drivers to go to the edge on the tarmac. And if they fluff it up, they shouldn't die.
I don't think anyone should be doing that on a 'public' day on a piste. If Cuche is pushing it on ice on a closed course, then if he screws up, he deserves not to slam into anything hard. That's the same as F1.
And on public pistes, of course there should be fencing at precipices, good marking, and orange padding around nasty hard metal things. And I put my kids in helmets and back protectors, in case some person mucks up and hits them (it's happended...see pugilism on the piste) - but on public pistes, for goodness sake people should be skiing carefully and within their limits. If they want a 'track day' where they go bonkers, then enter an open race like the Mt Lachaux race weekend in Crans Montana, and have a safe time going mad, with good protection and course management.
I welcome days in thick cloud skiing with my kids - fewer twits about. And go off piste if you want to go bonkers.
This may sound like the words of an old giffer.....but there we go.....
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sounds like you want to get flamed.
Skiing is in its very nature a dangerous sport but the comparison to F1? Really?!?!?!?!?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
kioksor, keep up...that's the point - downhill racing is like F1 in that the participants are going to the edge and should be protected from serious injury...public skiing is not, so was shouldn't be so preoccupied with removing all the risks.
kioksor, Actually valais2, may have some valid points, skiing is inherently a dangerous sport, it is very easy to get up to high speeds with only a minimal amount of training, through in bad weather conditions and inexperience and I think I see where he's coming from.
There are an awful lot of things that have the potential to go wrong on the slopes and unless going for an instructors job there are no formal (universal) qualifications, this means you can get people (I have seen them) get off of a cablecar at the top of a mountain and attempt to straight line it down the slope hitting others or crashing in a mass of flailing arms and legs after an impact in excess of 50kph.
I'd probably be the last person to insist on any form of formal qualification but I do believe that people who are obviously dangerous/unsafe should be removed from the piste and not let back on until they can prove they are safe and in control
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I think the gist of it is 'don't ski like a tit' which is fair enough!!!
crazy_skier_jules, ..very well put...I took five paragraphs and you said it in five words....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Parallel with motorcyclists on public roads at weekends ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Yes it's just like F1 and for "F1" level skiers (downhillers etc) there are many protective elements. However most of us are not of that standard - most of us are "driving a mondeo up and down the m4" level, so a helmet and a sense of not being a tit will have to suffice.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I think that there are questions that can be asked about the safety arrangements on the speed events if you also follow motorsport.
Netting seems a 'indifferent' solution given the current technology. OK, so most of the time it stops the athletes but the idea of ski's and legs getting tangled up leaves me cold.
Steeling from motorcycle racing, inflatable barriers may offer an alternative, along with air bag systems in case of an accident - leading edge tech which is starting to appear on the GP & WSB scene.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
AndAnotherThing.., On true race tracks ski racers are in general fairly safe, yes there will always be odd accidents that lead to serious injury or death but in all honesty I don't think they can be avoided, many modern ski races place lightweight mats over the netting, the idea is that the netting absorbs the impact slowly (some courses even have two or 3 concentric nets to help this) whilst the flexible mats are there to try and prevent, arms, legs or skis from being caught in the net with horrific results, part of the issue with safety systems on ski runs is that they have to be able to cope with temperatures ranging from around -20C up to about +10C nets and padding do this quite well.
I've seen some pretty serious crashes in races where the racer never even touches the nets, apart from their helmets racers tend to wear a skin tight lycra catsuit with no extra protection, if they fall at speed after catching an edge or landing poorly from a jump they can end up pinwheeling down the middle of the course, no safety system in the world can deal with that, nor with the possibility that a ski edge will slice into a limb during such a crash.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Very easy to slow things down, don't piste the runs.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Personally, I'd bring in some sort of license.
Where Skiers and Boarders should all go through Snow Sports schools and have Instruction.
A license is then given when the School thinks you are responsible and competent.
Then, Insurance and Lift passes should only be sold to those who own a license.
Licenses should then be revoked if people ski irresponsibly. Or a fine system put in place, like you get with a driving license.
Ski Patrol and Instructors should have the duresdiction to employ these powers on the slopes when someone ski's/Boards dangerously.
All imho of course.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
You might compare skiing World cup with F1 race... I still don't know exactly how but well let's do it. But it's stupid to compare recreational skiing with F1 race. If we stay with such comparison, we can compare recreational skiing with every day driving on roads. And believe it or not, there are unprotected houses next to roads, there are traffic lights, road lights, other people on road and next to road.... pretty much same as with snow guns, lift towers, trees and other skiers on ski place. I guess noone expects sand zones on corners on normal roads, so I don't see reason why to protect open ski course same way as WC course is. It's completely different thing, pretty much same as F1 race vs. normal road traffic.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
D G Orf wrote:
many modern ski races place lightweight mats over the netting, the idea is that the netting absorbs the impact slowly (some courses even have two or 3 concentric nets to help this) whilst the flexible mats are there to try and prevent, arms, legs or skis from being caught in the net with horrific results.
I haven't seen the mats in use but it sounds like a move in the right direction.
I wonder if airbag type systems will catch on in the end.
Where Skiers and Boarders should all go through Snow Sports schools and have Instruction.
A license is then given when the School thinks you are responsible and competent.
Then, Insurance and Lift passes should only be sold to those who own a license.
Licenses should then be revoked if people ski irresponsibly. Or a fine system put in place, like you get with a driving license.
Ski Patrol and Instructors should have the duresdiction to employ these powers on the slopes when someone ski's/Boards dangerously.
All imho of course.
Licencing may be safer but it will never happen because it would drastically reduce the number of slope users... No ski area would endorse that because it would cut their revenue...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Nadenoodlee wrote:
most of us are "driving a mondeo up and down the m4" level, so a helmet and a sense of not being a booby will have to suffice.
If I drive up the M4 I would expect that the other drivers have passed a driving test and are insured and will take due care. Oh and I wouldn't expect lamp posts in the middle of the carriageway either.
BTW do you wear a helmet when you drive your Mondeo? You know head injuries are a significant factor in car accidents don't you?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof wrote:
If I drive up the M4 I would expect that the other drivers have passed a driving test and are insured and will take due care. Oh and I wouldn't expect lamp posts in the middle of the carriageway either.
What about when on bike? You can ride bike (also at 100km/h) without driving license. And there's really not much difference between lamp posts in middle of road or on side of road. You know they are there, so you avoid them. Just as you know snow guns are on middle, and on side, of ski course. So you ski appropriately to these facts.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Get a grip people. Airbags? Strict licensing systems. None of these will happen due to cost/skier number consequences. For individuals the best thing you can do is improve your abilities such that you can outpace or avoid the dangerous knobheads out there and remember to keep spatial awareness. It's not difficult to do shoulder checks yet as an experiment I counted the number of people who clocked me on merging pistes on Saturrday am. The number - zero.
The number of deaths from skiing is minimal. Leave people alone! I'm sick and tired of this country always telling me what to do! Fines for everything, constantly watched, rules for this and regulation on that. No=one can use initiative without being told to stop or pay a fortune to complete forms. I ski because I can do what I bloody well please! Rules are there when manners fail, look at the rise of PC. If people weren't such s hits it wouldn't be necessary to tell everyone what to do.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I ski because I can do what I bloody well please
Not if that is likely to lead to serious injury or death to others.
While I agree in general with the leave us alone and stop regulating everything comments, as you point out, we all have a duty of care to others.
After all it is free
After all it is free
two days ago i headbutted a metal cabinet next to a snow canon that was 2 meters off the side of a piste at a reasonable speed... the cabinet had a thin padded cover and i had a helmet on so no damage.
seems to me what we have now works...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Boris, absolutely. We are free to do as we please in the UK but obviously robbing a bank for more money is unacceptable. The point is, there seems to have been a breakdown of courtesy in public life: 2am in a lot of town centres etc.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
fatbob wrote:
Get a grip people. Airbags?
My comments were with regard to racing specifically. You say 'get a grip' but....
1. There probably is a market for an appropriate ski based system among the general public (Look at helmets and ABS type packs)
2. That will likely drive the likes of Dainese to develop such a product through racing.
3. I would not race without a helmet and probably body armour.
Would I wear one ? I doubt it. I own body armour and helmets but rarely ski with them - unless racing. That said, Admin's avy story may compel me to look at wearing body armour for off piste.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Boris wrote:
Not if that is likely to lead to serious injury or death to others.
Hitting snow gun next to the course most likely won't cause injury or death to anyone else then the guy who hit it. So why bother with all that. And yes, I agree with Andersont... I like skiing (or mtb in summer) because I can do whatever I want. If I want I can go as fast as I want, and if I want, I can crawl around. As soon as they will enforce some idiot with speed measuring radar on/next to course, I will stop skiing. Especially since these things are ridiculous. Why? It's simple... they will set limits so low, that even English or Dutch "skiers" (yes please do jump on me for this), who come to ski 5 days every fifth year, will be feeling comfortable with that speed. And who gives a f** about someone who spent all his/her life on skis, and who has 15, 20 or more years of racing training behind him/her. Things are pretty similar on roads anyway... Maximum 120-130km/h is still speed limit on most of European highway... and this speed is from 50 years ago, when most of cars had almost no brakes, no current technology etc, and 120km/h was maximum speed those cars could produce... after half hour of empty flat road
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
two days ago i headbutted a metal cabinet next to a snow canon that was 2 meters off the side of a piste at a reasonable speed... the cabinet had a thin padded cover and i had a helmet on so no damage.
seems to me what we have now works...
...except your brakes?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
primoz wrote:
Yes I mean bicycle
How often do you ride a bike at 100km/h?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The airbag suits used by motorcyle racers, is already being tested and developed for Ski Racers.
What is developed in ski racing usually filters down to the general skiing public in one form or the other...so who know's in the future.
As for licences...Why not?
Look it from the other side...perhaps people would be more interested if it was safer and regulated. Perhaps more would take up skiing. I know people who won't ski because they say it's too dangerous.
You can be as good a skier as you like and as safe as houses...but you can't always rely on others.
The amount of times i've seen boarders flying from the trees onto the piste without looking this season is unreal...it just needed someone in the wrong place at the wrong time for there to be a major incident.
Having spent time on the slopes this season with Ski Patrol and as an Instructor teaching, imho, skiing needs further regulating.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
davidof wrote:
How often do you ride a bike at 100km/h?
Not all that often, and definitely less often then I ski at 100km/h. But does it really matter how often you do it?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
spud wrote:
As for licences...Why not?
How would you propose to issue and police a license system? Presumably beginners would require some kind of provisional license to get going, so what would prevent people from simply skiing on a provisional license forever? You would also face the issue of deciding on standards for obtaining whatever license was imposed. Most people on the slopes are intermediate level at best, the vast majority 1 or 2 week per season holiday skiers. Those people are key to the commercial viability of any ski resort so you certainly can't exclude them from the slopes. So presumably anyone who can complete basic turns and stop would be granted a license - which is basically everyone currently on the slopes except for absolute beginners who are really not the problem here. There is no way to differentiate the knob-heads with licensing in the same way that driving licenses don't really prevent knob-heads from driving.
I think the only way forward is more active piste patrolling with the power to pull lift passes and lifetime blacklisting (maybe with a shared database across resorts) for serious offenders - maybe including CCTV systems in strategic locations eg. merging pistes, dedicated slow zones etc. Perhaps all a bit Big Brother and I'd personally rather not ski in crowded resorts, but probably the only way to reduce reckless skiing significantly.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
primoz wrote:
davidof wrote:
How often do you ride a bike at 100km/h?
Not all that often, and definitely less often then I ski at 100km/h. But does it really matter how often you do it?
Well it does because firstly the more you do it the more you're exposing yourself to that risk - although of course you will have more experience and thus be better equipped to deal with that risk (unless you're a moron).
Secondly the more often you do it the more you become inured to the inherent risk of the activity. So people who regularly do anything dangerous quickly become accustomed to that risk and don't take it so seriously or consider it as much as they perhaps should. This is a well documented issue with everything from working at height to handling hazardous chemicals to motorway driving to simply crossing the road.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Spyderman wrote:
Very easy to slow things down, don't piste the runs.
I some ways i agree
In les carroz there is a run under the gron chair that used to be red, then they graded it black and left it mogulled, it was a fun quiet run, lots of moguls and a chair lift above so people could be amused at your bad technique. Now it is groomed......so now lots of people going down very quick, alot of them too quick, to where it joins a blue.
One of the complaints of GM is it does not have many steep groomed pistes.....nearly all the steep blacks are bumped, I would rather keep it that way. A lot of the reason for the increase in accidents is massively improved skis and everything is groomed flat as a pancake, because that is what the vsitors want......... so solution is put a few bumps in the way and they can't go quickly.
How would you propose to issue and police a license system? Presumably beginners would require some kind of provisional license to get going, so what would prevent people from simply skiing on a provisional license forever? You would also face the issue of deciding on standards for obtaining whatever license was imposed. Most people on the slopes are intermediate level at best, the vast majority 1 or 2 week per season holiday skiers. Those people are key to the commercial viability of any ski resort so you certainly can't exclude them from the slopes. So presumably anyone who can complete basic turns and stop would be granted a license - which is basically everyone currently on the slopes except for absolute beginners who are really not the problem here. There is no way to differentiate the knob-heads with licensing in the same way that driving licenses don't really prevent knob-heads from driving.
I think the only way forward is more active piste patrolling with the power to pull lift passes and lifetime blacklisting (maybe with a shared database across resorts) for serious offenders - maybe including CCTV systems in strategic locations eg. merging pistes, dedicated slow zones etc. Perhaps all a bit Big Brother and I'd personally rather not ski in crowded resorts, but probably the only way to reduce reckless skiing significantly.
Yes... I agree Patrolling should be more prevelent. With powers.
A licence doesn't have to be hard or put people off skiing. But imho, everyone that goes on a slope should do some course or receive some instruction.
At the moment, you can rock up at a rental shop, grab some skis and boots, buy a lift pass, have no insurance, wear jeans and a t shirt and hurl yourself down a black run without ever receiving any knowledge before. It's friggin nuts when you think about it.
The introduction of carving skis has made many novices feel invincible. People bomb about out of control, but still having fun, so they never bother with lessons. As long as they are having fun and can get down...they don't give a poo-poo. And in their mind, they are in control, think they can ski, and have learnt everything they know from Youtube clips
Unfortunately...they are becoming more prevelent.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud wrote:
The introduction of carving skis has made many novices feel invincible. People bomb about out of control, but still having fun, so they never bother with lessons. As long as they are having fun and can get down...they don't give a poo-poo. And in their mind, they are in control, think they can ski, and have learnt everything they know from Youtube clips
Unfortunately...they are becoming more prevelent.
Flashback
"Thanks to that damned Henry Bessemer and his process, we now have our beautiful handcarved boughs sullied by these dangerous metal edges and all these peasants are educating themselves through Caxton's cursed media. Skiing is no longer the sport of gentlemen and all the worse for it."
Not all that often, and definitely less often then I ski at 100km/h. But does it really matter how often you do it?
I ask because even in pro cycling it is rare for riders to hit 100km/h even on big mountain stages. Personally, having crashed at speed skiing and cycling I'd sooner be on skis at that speed but on a bike, unless you are in a road race, you are less likely to affect other road users.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Boris wrote:
Quote:
I ski because I can do what I bloody well please
Not if that is likely to lead to serious injury or death to others.
While I agree in general with the leave us alone and stop regulating everything comments, as you point out, we all have a duty of care to others.
Yes, but with the blurred lines between people's interpretation of what constitutes "duty of care" or personal responsibility, regulation will always continue to strip more and more freedom away, replacing with more and more regulation to protect us from the basest idiots.
I, for one, would rather see things left as they are.
After all it is free
After all it is free
carroz wrote:
so solution is put a few bumps in the way and they can't go quickly.
We could call the moguls "Speed Bumps"
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
primoz, ...just for the record i gave this thread AN IRONIC TITLE ... you'll see from the sensible comments (which are in the majority) that I and many think that while we should really go for research-based safety in respect of downhill racing, we shouldn't go bonkers on removing hazard from public pistes - beyond obvious measures such as good marking and orange padding. People should ski within their limits and not go bonkers. I do like the idea of speed bumps on key pistes - see spyderman and carroz above - that sounds like good resort management. I agree with the libertarians here, namely that 'nanny State' principles should not extend to skiing - licensing would be problematic I think, although ready for the discussion. We don't have licencing in climbing and yet the safety record, safety culture and self-education culture is pretty impressive. Wish it was like that in skiing. I would rather leave things as they are, bar one thing, I wouldn't mind pisteurs doing a bit of 'can you stop skiing like an a rse...' which I think would be good....with powers to confiscate passes - in fact just the publicised threat of this might be enough to cool some people. Never pass any regulation which you are not going to enforce - leads to a decline in faith in the law. Although such powers could lead to a decay rather than improvement in on-piste culture since I reckon a lot of arguments would then ensue. People who spend a lot of time in the Alps climbing and skiing tend to be self-sufficient and self-contained - quietly competent. But I wish the 'blatting senselessly down the hill skiing well above their ability' brigade would blood y well stop doing it.
I do like the idea of speed bumps....
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Just get the pistenbully drivers to smoke some more weed or crack - amazing how many holes and "accidental" 1 foot step up/downs they can leave on a piste when they don't concentrate.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
