Advice for a beginner (with flat feet!) please - Boots, Ski School etc, going to Vail soon

A snowHead

Hi,

So I have been skiing probably about 4 days in my whole life. I am going to Vail at the end of the month and need a bit of advice before I head out there. I've got clothing, but I don't have ski boots, skis etc.

My Skill Level
I can make it down Greens ok, I can parallel turn left better than I can turn right. I've been told I'm "good" considering the fact I have barely been skiing.

My Feet
I have relatively flat feet and I have custom made orthotics made by the NHS. (I tried Pro feet ones first and those were a waste of money). i was thinking I could put these orthotics in the boot.

SKI BOOTS

I have almost flat feet. Everytime I have hired boots I have been left in exrcutiaiting pain, to the point where I have either had to take them off and rest my feet for an hour or two, or, I have been barely able to walk after having them on all day.

I thought maybe I should get some boots fitted.

I went to a chain store in London and was fitted Nordica F4's. Apparently these should last me a bit longer than simple beginner boots. The fit seemed tight but ok, but that is coming from someone who does not know any better. A Superfeet orthotic and heel lift were used.

How does that sound to you guys? What other boots would you recommend. However, ideally i'd like to pick up the boots second-hand and not spend £200+

OR - should I just get some rentals? The ski-hire places in Vail seem decent enough, from their websites? But they charge a hell of a lot for renting.

SKI SCHOOL

I'm having trouble finding ski lessons in Vail at the beginning of April. Assuming its just a website issue, what would you guys recommend i do - group lessons? Also is there any difference at the various locations within Vail?

Many thanks

A snowHead

Hi

Im no expert but Snow n rock sale is on and they have up to 50% off boots at present. Nordica f4 are £199 so "Fill ya boots"!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Strangely enough, that's where I was!

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Hi

I was in the same position as you last year. i bought some Atomic boots from s&n and they were extremely tight. After a while I took them back and they relaxed them a bit and they feel fine now. I think it was about £200 all in with moulded insoles etc. if you look at renting go online and get the discount codes. Skimium are cheap if you sign up online.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Unfortunately, Skimium don't operate in Vail, Colorado.

You'll need to Register first of course.

oops sorry i read it as Val D!!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

If you are planning on going again I would certainly recommend getting your own, new, boots. Will make a world of difference. Dont know anything about the F4 but it will be better than renting, that is pretty much guaranteed in my opinion.

I dont think second hand will be that much better than renting - the liner will already be packed down to the shape of someone elses foot. You could always buy the boot, discard the inner and buy a new one, but it harldy makes sense financially.

After all it is free

Fair point Pam.... should have thought about the boot type, eh!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Depending on where you are staying, Christie Sports for rental in Vail - you get an excellent deal if you book online before you go and they are really helpful. Agree you should buy your boots if you are having problems with fit, but maybe give them a decent try out in the Snowdome beforehand so you can iron out any early glitches. Or take a look online at US prices and get them out there - you can have any adjustments made while you are there.

Re: lessons, Vail used to do an excellent 'learn to ski' course that included three days tuition, three days' ski pass at a very good rate - not much more than the ski pass alone (you just have to lie a little bit about your ability to ski). The ski school in Vail is run by the resort so you will need to book via their website I think. If the beginners lesson isn't what you need, then at least search around and get discounts on your ski pass - if you are DIYing and renting your own condo, your rental agent may be able to get you a hefty discount or search around the net - there are always discount passes for international visitors if you book in advance.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Second hand boot

I've seen this mentioned more than once. I'm totally baffled. Have you bought second hand shoes often? I would guess not but I could be wrong.

Everyone's feet are different. Heck, my left foot isn't a mirror image of my right foot, they aren't even the same exact size! So I'm entirely lost when people talk about buying second hand ski boots.

Ski boots fits a lot tighter than street shoes. So any mismatch of foot shape to boot shape will become hot spot or sore points. Add a lot of force to it while skiing, it seems to me a disaster waiting to happen. And I don't mean just a ruined ski holiday. I mean the potential of ruin foot! (I happened to know someone, ill-fitted boot --> frost bite --> septic shock --> 2 nights in hospital)

If you have custom orthotics, you MAY consider putting it in your ski boot. However, most people end up with ski boots 1 size smaller than their street shoes. So yours might be too big to fit in the boot.

One option is to go not to the slope but a boot shop first when you get to Vail. Have a pair of boots fitted and have them re-adjusted for the time while you're actually skiing them. That's how I got my boots, from a shop at the resort and have them adjust and readjust during a weekend of skiing. If you go that route, ask for a boot fitter recommendation at epicski.com (the American equivalence of snowheads)

snow reports

Regarding lessons, a lot of mountain stop offering group lessons late in the season due to low demand. I would think you can get a private though.

Regarding your feet, dont compromise. If you suffer flat feet, then rental boots with stuffed insoles which are not moulded will still not do the trick. Please don't take this lightly.
The whole ski experience can be compromised by poorly fitting boots alone. The precision of power transfer is lost and you end up, day after day, with terribly achy/ painful feet. I would not bother with rentals if you are likely to consider skiing again.

Get some cheaper boots suitable to your abilty. Most people probably buy boots which are far too inflexible for their ability/ strength.
More flexible boots will be more comfortable as you progress, and, you'll be able to get 100+ days of good use out of them.
A good boot fitting could last over an hour, so prepare for this and expect to try at least 4-5 pairs as the boot fitter gets an idea.
S&R will fit well, so you should not need to travel desperately far. The extra money for precision fitting on top of the boot cost will afford you a good experience, and you are travelling far, so why not ensure the basics are watertight. More importantly, should you continue to ski, then these boots will be your connection to any rental skis. You will be certain they will be reliable.

I'm unable to assist you on Vail's ski schools, but I'm sure someone will.

You know it makes sense.

I have chronically flat feet that. Amongst other things, leads to a very weird balance on skis. My first week as a beginner on rented boots was excruciating. Simple insoles don’t work.

On my second ever week skiing, I had had enough by the end of day one. I walked into a ski shop in Val d'Isere and had some boots fitted after having foot measurements taken and trying a few pairs: post choice fitting that just involved a footbed, as I didn't know any better in those days. They were nice, flexible, beginner boots.

Those old Technicas, bought 10 years ago, despite not having been comprehensively fitted, changed everything: not only did they stop the agony (not all pain – my feet still ache after a hard or very long run), they allowed my skiing to come on leaps and bounds.

I broke those boots a couple of weeks ago, and instead of fixing them, have treated myself to a new pair more suited for the way I ski these days. I used Profeet, but not just for insoles – for a custom boot fit. I will be using the new boots in just over a week (in what appear to be heavy spring conditions Sad

). They feel fantastic – and are even more comfy than my old boots, with plenty of space left for adjustment when they pack out after I have skiied them a bit.

If you intend to ski for the foreseeable future, get boots fitted. It’s expensive, but compare to renting once every year and plan to keep them for a decade, it works out. And it will mean skiing is a pleasure, not a pain.

I have never bothered buying skis - but boots were a must for my problem feet, even as a beginner (in fact, especially as a beginner).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

THANKS ALL! for all your help so far, really appreciate it!

I've pretty much ruled out second hand boots based on the above, but before I fork out for new boots, I'd appreciate some advice...

If you don't mind, I'll give you a rundown of the fitting as I'm a complete novice. I thought my fitting at Snow and Rock was good, time is limited to go to lots of other fitters and so I am considering buying the Nordica F4's on their recommendation.

But here's my experience of the fitting...

My Snow and Rock Fitting

It took just under one hour. We talked through what skiing I had done before, what turns etc I am comfortable doing, what sort of runs I had ski'd on, how i got on, if I have had lessons before. Then we discussed what problems/pain I had.

On the basis that I was well out of the "snow plough" phase and doing parallel turns etc, the boot fitter though it would not be the ebst idea to buy "beginner" boots. He thought that I'd be a "decent" beginner by the end of the week. I told the fitter that I plan to ski again for a week next season. On that basis, he asked if I'd be happier to go in a stiffer boot that might last me a longer period.

He then measured each foot, whilst standing and with pressure on one foot and bent knees. Looked and felt my feet/arches when standing, bent knees and when leaning - both with my feet flat on the floor and with my big toe flexed. He also looked at my alignment.

We then discussed custom insoles that they make. My foot shape, what I'd need and why. The types of insole they offered and which best suited my flat feet.

We then tried on boots, he talked me through their selection saying what he thought would fit and what would not because of my foot shape, ankle and my general stance.

On that basis we tried one brand of boot. I kept them on for over 5mins, walkling around, and we discussed how they felt. I then put on the Nordica's, he explained that they would feel stiffer, are a harder boot, but that they allow for some tweaking to make them more and less flexible. I kept these on for over 5mins and then described any pain. I then had a Superfeet insole in one and not in the other for 5mins walking around, and we assessed the difference. Then put in another tweak, kept those on for 5mins, so that they were now much more comfortable.

That was it.

So what do you guys think?

Ski School

Vail Ski School seems pretty expensive! Private lessons are extortionate ($545 - $745), so I'll b having group lessons I think! We are staying in a Condo, and have already got reduced ski-lift passes.

The cheapest deal I have found is the following:
Vail 3Day Ski Lesson Only "3-D Series"
Includes 3 consecutive days of lessons. For all skier ability levels. Does not include a lift ticket. Lesson time: 9:45am to 3:30pm.

It's a bit odd as the above its listed in the "Intermediate/Advanced" lessons, yet states it is for ALL levels. There is then another for Beginners: but this includes a lift pass to the "beginner slopes" not much use if I already have a ski-lift pass, and also not sure what the beginner slopes are and whether after 3 days i would get bored?

Do I book this on the Vail website now, or wait till I am there? Also, I've had a seacrh on the net, but not found any discounts for ski lessons.

Any other thoughts would be gratefully received.

Thanks
R

A snowHead

Renting in the US can be expensive but you need to offset the rental costs with how much it might cost to travel with skis / boots.

I only have experience of Lionshead but it seems the closer to the slopes the shop is the more expensive the rental! Vail Ski Tech are a bit cheaper and offer a discount if you are staying at Sandstone Creek Club (and don't bother to check if you are or not).
One benefit of hiring skis is that you don't have to lug them back to your accommodation as most shops allow you to leave them there overnight and collect in the morning. If (as it did for us) this means a hike from the bottom of the ski runs to the shuttle bus, ten minutes (sometimes standing) on the bus, a further hike to the accommodation and a set of steps to get to the ski locker; then dumping the skis at the shop might be a more pleasant alternative.

The ski school is indeed "owned" by the resort and is the only licenced body offering instruction. Lesson can either be arranged on line http://www.vail.com/ski-and-snowboard-school/adult-lessons/adult-lessons.aspx or in person at one of their lift pass / ski school sales windows at either Lionshead or Vail Village. From the website they still seem to be offering lessons well into April.

Edited to add.....
Yes, the ski school is expensive to say the least. Don't think you will find a discount on lessons - at least I've never come across one. The 3D lesson thing at $280 for 3 days is probably their better deal. I did this last year and they sort people into one of 9 or so levels based on how they describe their skiing and for a short ski off. Be prepared for an entirely different group of people in the class each day as not everyone will have signed up for the 3D package. This means you might repeat a bit on day 2 / 3 what you did on a previous day as the class has new participants that need this instruction.
No need to book now unless you absolutely want to. In January we turned up at the window and asked for lessons starting 48 hours later; which they managed to do easily.

My wife suffers with feet problems and had a pair of boots fitted in the UK before going to Vail in 2011. They felt great in the shop and in the fridge for a few hours. However, when worn for a full weeks skiing they weren't good and she ended up in agony by the end of each day. One of the ski shops did their best to adjust the boots to her feet (large bunions, high arches and big calves) but it was only a temporary relief and it really took the gloss off the holiday. This year she went back to the same shop who tried her out in a few different makes and she ended up with the first pair of comfortable boots she has ever used. Buying boots out there might be a bit more expensive but you would a) get the chance to demo several different makes on snow and not just try on in the shop and b) you can take them back every day for free adjustment / tuning if needed.
For info, the shop she found skiing nirvana in was Jeannie Thoren in Lionshead.

A snowHead

rossyl, if you have time, strongly recommend you see CEM in Bicester (Solutions4feet.co.uk). It doesn't sound like a very thorough fitting (did he try you in the boots with no inners, to check the shell size?) and although I'm absolutely no expert at all on boots, I still wonder whether boots that stiff are right. I am a reasonable skier, been skiing for yonks, ski a lot every year. I don't have "expert" boots - though I do have boots expertly fitted. If your boots fit really well, and are comfortable, you probably wouldn't need any new ones for a good few years of skiing one or two weeks a year.

Those ski lessons in Vail sound absurdly expensive Shocked

Still, I guess you don't go to Vail for a bargain holiday.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

pam w, rossyl - I would second CEM in Bicester, they fitted my wife a pair of boots before Christmas and it is the first time she has been able to ski without foot problems, her skiing & confidence has improved ten fold. CEM came over very friendly, helpful & knowledgeable and comparing boot prices very reasonable. We would definately go there again when it is time to replace my boots.
Noisey

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Rossyl, I'm afraid I can't help you on US ski school.

The boot fitting sounded pretty rudimentary to be honest. Pretty like the first one I had all those years ago. My feet sound similar to yours (but possibly worse - trust me, they look like flippers, not feet, they're that flat!).

Go to one of the recommended fitters that the guys on the thread are recommending. I'm in London and have been recommended Profeet (the same people incidentally said that their boot/trainer fitting services were brilliant, their off the shelf insoles rubbish).

My fitting took nearly 3 hours. It involved scans of my feet to show weight distribution, as well as manual measuring and observations. They tested a number of different stances. They reworked the boot lining and heat moulded it, as well as the custom footbed/insole. They also reworked the actual boot shell as well - this is important to us flatties, as the lack of arch jams the inside ankle bones against the boot and also messes with your stance. They then get you into a machine that simulates going from edge to edge, check the movement in the boot/liner, and re-adjust. Eventually, they scan you again with the boots on. The scan should show the boots helping to get you into the correct stance, with completely even weight distribution left and right, and front to back.

This is a layman's observations of his own experiences. They also said, any adjustments, come back and they'll be done free of charge. The boots feel brilliant - almost as if they are themselves getting me to stand correctly. They are as comfortable as slippers (more so, due to the support), and feel like they will help with precision edge placing and feedback (although I'll only know for sure after skiing them!).

Hope that helped.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Sorry - yes, he did try me with and without the shell to check the size. He also stuck his hand in there feeling around the sides to check for ample room.

I might try CEM.

You'll need to Register first of course.

I've used Profeet for some insoles for running shoes and I was extremely disappointed. I spent £250 or possibly more, and I don't even those damn custom made orthotics are anymore. It sounds like ski boot fitting is more their speciality, but I'm a bit (possibly wrongly in terms of ski boots) put off.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Nick_H the URL's in your post don't appear to be working - would be grateful if you could fill them in.

After all it is free

ANOTHER question - rental ski's at the end of the season. Likely to be decent enough assuming I am taking my own boots along? Thanks.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Rossyl, think the URLs are fixed now.

Rental skis should be fine. Season at Vail was a bit thin to start with but once I left it started snowing big time Sad

Chatting with an instructor he said that he gets his skis edged only once or twice all season as there is usually plenty of soft snow.

You never know but the shop might be interested in selling the skis on at the end of the hire if they seem to be surplus to requirements in the last few weeks of the season. You might achieve the impossible and pick up a bargain in Vail!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

haha - thanks Nick, I've never been before and everything seems very pricey! I've had a hunt online for rental ski's and am shocked at the price difference just by a little hunting.

I'm planning on using either:
www.vailskibase.com
OR
www.vailskitech.com

for the ski's & poles. Both are less than half the price of renting through the Vail Resort.

Unfortunatelt Jeannie Thoren, although place of nirvana I don't think I'd be allowed entry being a bloke! So my search may well continue!

snow reports

Even for a ski resort things are pricey!

This is what we did to keep the costs down (though it is never going to be cheap)....

Have a great time; I'm sure you will!

THe boot fitting is highly subjective. It really does depend on whom they had to fit you out, however, a boot flex rating of approx 60-80 is enough for an adult male of average build and weight when starting out. There is plenty of flex to allow for good progession should you require it.
The most important thing is not the flex of the boot, but the fitting itself. A relatively modest boot fitted well should more than exceed the potential of an "expert" boot never fitted specifically to the wearer's foot. Hamish Wolfenden at Profeet is good, and equally well received is James Choularton at Outdoor Traders in Abingdon, Oxon. S&R at Hemel Hempstead fit well (personal experience).
The boot should/ may need to feel somewhat tight and slightly too small intially ( apparently), in order to expand well when actually in the white stuff. However, this should really be confirmed with a real expert.
At the end of the day, you are off to enjoy yourself. Do it any way you choose, buy the boots in the UK or in the USA, ultimately, get them fitted for your feet. Wish you well.

Help!!

Advice for a beginner (with flat feet!) please - Boots, Ski School etc, going to Vail soon

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