Boot fitting in the Uk...

A snowHead

... I'm with a group of Brits ( over 20 people ) of which 50%ish have had their boots fitted by S&R and EB in the UK.

We attended a boot fitting class in Canada, to find everyone of them had boots too big for them, by 1 to 3 sizes. Shocked

Now i'm as sceptical as the next person, and thought this maybe a scam by the Canadian boot fitter who was trying to get some business...but no...I saw for my own eyes.

Fortunately, i've been going to the same boot fitter in France for over 20 years, and was found to have perfectly fitted boots...

But what does this say about British boot fitters?

Anyone else found British boot fitters wanting?

A snowHead

Popcorn!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

parlor, Salt or sugar? Can I share Toofy Grin

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spud, to be polite, there are more bootfitters in the UK than just S&R and EB.....some of the independent British bootfitters are very good and come well recommended on here.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

spud,

ok i have my beer and salted popcorn.....

there are a few sweeping generalizations being made in your post, here are my thoughts on it, i am not going to enter into a fight with anyone about this, i simply can't be bothered, sure if you have a question i will try to answer it

the UK market is more technical than most, far more technical than most European markets and in many ways more technical than most of the US and canadian market, there are boot fitters in every country and their are boot sellers in every country too, on the whole i would say that the level of boot fitting in the UK is as good as if not better than any country out there(randomly select 50 shops in a country and average out the level rather than pick on specialists in one country against generalists in another)...... there are problems in every market, you just see them in your home market because that is where you live. the UK is not an alpine nation so as skiers we travel to a variety of alpine nations to go to ski, you will therefore come across all nature of fitting levels.... i hear that many shops in the UK consider what i do to be wrong and every boot we sell is too small... If so why we are still growing in this economic climate

1 we try to fit everyone with a 10-20mm shell check, some fitters work 5-15mm but 5mm shell check is pretty dam tight unless your foot profile matches the shell perfectly and you are skiing all season long and have access to a fitter for adjustments, remember most people are recreational skiers doing 1-2 weeks per season at most
2 to get that 15mm optimum often requires moving down a shell size from the measured size, this is as a result of the boot manufacturers eeking a little more toe room onto the boot sizes over the years so the boots feel more comfortable in the store, as soon as you drop a size into the "correct" size the average "boot seller" will tell you that the boot is too small
3 a boot with a shell check as described will feel too small when you put it on at first, we always tell someone as they go into the boot "this is going to feel too small" but if you don't and the toes hit the end (which they will) then you are on to a loosing battle, many places simply go for the easy "oversized" fit but often the customer rejects the boot as too small before it is even clipped up.... clipping the boot correctly and giving the liner 5 minutes to warm up makes a whole world of difference in the fit
4 it is easy to go with the big size, people very rarely return a boot which is a bit loose, but sure as black is black, if their toe nail is anywhere near the front when they go skiing you will see the boot back for modification or the demand of a refund for being too small (oh yeas and the rental shop will have backed up the fact they are too small in resort) if someone wants us to supply the bigger boot as it "feels more comfortable" we note it on the fitting card, because if it does come back with a problem we need to know why it was sold.
5 flexibility... without a decent amount of flexibility in the ankle joint the skier is unable to get into the back of the boot and even a boot a size big will feel too small, the correct size feels like it is drilling a hole through the foot, whilst a boot fitter can select an upright shell and add lifts under the heel, yuo need to think about stretching as a routine to get fit for skiing...it is a sport not a pastime
6 technique, yup, people need to take a bit of personal responsibility for what they tell the fitter as this will determine the level of boot they end up in, i remember years ago seeing a group skiing in chamonix, i had seen them selling themselves the day before to the boot fitter and 3 of them were in fairly top end boots, none could string more than a handful of turns together, they were skiing around in the back seat and back at the boot fitter that afternoon complaining that the boots were too small as their toes hurt
7 Boots take time to break in, it can be a few hours if your foot is boot shaped it can be a few days or even a few weeks if the fit is really tight, but it doesn't happen instantly.
8 walking around... keep the upper clips done up, to keep your foot secure, i have seen more damage done to toe nails by people walking to the lift with clips flailing than anything else...yup you got it, the boots are obviously too small and the fitter is to blame

sure there are fitters (sellers) out there that could do better, but being an educated consumer is key, demand a shell check, if you don't get one which you are happy with leave and go elsewhere, if you don't understand why something is happening then ask!

i should ask, of those people whose boots were "too big" how many of them had been having problems and how many were skiing very happily with no issues, i am not defending "big" boots but each individual person wants something different from their equipment and their skiing, some people just simply find that they don't want the correct size as it is restrictive, they are on holiday participating in relaxation

so who is to blame, the boot manufacturer for making boots with liners a little short and shells a bit long, the fitter for not explaining it correctly and not forcing people down a size into the "correct" fit based purely on a book or the customer for not being educated or flexible

who knows...you decide Little Angel

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CEM, B00ger you are here too early.
I'll have to put the popcorn down!
No mention of the British Bootfitters association?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Boredsurfing, just wrote that whilst doing other things too, yes BSBA was set up to increase awareness and the level of boot fitting in the uk at present there are a number of members from various independent shops, as yet the larger chains and many independents have not joined up as they run their own training programs or in the case of one small independent store "having been in business as long as he had been he could see no benefit" !!!

After all it is free

spud, Also some good boot fitters in the shops you mention. I would not hesitate sending anyone to Julian at EB.

my personal view is that length is only one dimension of the fit. I'll probably get shot down for this but if the boot fits well around your ankle and forefoot, I am not sure what the harm is with a little wriggle room for the toes

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Arno, boots should fit well everywhere, if a boot fits well then when youre flexed you should be able to wiggle your toes abit.

As for S&R and EB, i worked at S&R and there are some great boot fitters (me wink

) and some not so great bootfitters. I worked with a couple of brilliant fitters who I would trust with my boots, and some I wouldnt trust with fitting socks let along ski boots.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I for one thank you CEM, for one of probably the most informative and honest views on the often varied world of boot fitting. Concise, not overly "technical", so easy for the layman to get it snowHead

Should probably have the main bit put in a sticky somewhere for others to find easily IMHO.

snow reports

Robsaan, out of curiosity, did you work at S & R in Chertsey about 9 years ago?

Chasseur, No im not quite that old, I was in manchester 2ish years ago.

CEM, i would second that its a very informative look at boot fitting, unfortunately though I think this is a topic that will raise its ugly head for many years to come. My honest opinion is go to a bootfitter who has been personally reccomended to you. There are good bootfitters in S&R, I was personally recommended by Warren Smith for any one from the manchester area looking for new boots during the time I was at S&R and in all my time I had 5 refits, and these were people with big legs and a guy with pinned ankles.

From a boot fitters point of view too, if you have been recommended to see a specific boot fitter, by all means read up on bootfitting and procedure, but dont go in thinking you know more than him. If he is good and knows what he is doing, he WILL have your best interest and comfort at heart. He will take pride and enjoyment from bootfitting (i did and really miss it now im not doing it) and will not want to see you back in the shop for a refit. He is the expert, let him do his job. Oh and if youre a lady tell your husband to stay at home, there is nothing more annoying than an arrogant husband trying to tell you what to do from his 'vast' experience..... And wear appropriate clothing, shorts skirts are not what you should wear to a boot fit, especially if your dad is there.

You know it makes sense.

Robsaan, just wondered - the guy at S&R who fitted mine was outstanding (contracting there until he went out to a resort do his usual season job fitting boots). Given my flat feet and very little discomfort from the off, I've been loath to change them (22+ weeks and linings shot plus boots looking a little war torn Laughing

).

New liners and a refurb is probably the answer.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Chasseur, If youre after new liners I would look at Zipfits, I always found them a really great liner. Worn torn boots are the way forward, there will probably be nothing wrong with the shell.

A snowHead

Robsaan,

You weren't by any chance trained as a boot fitter by a lady from Banff?

Sorry if my post came across as a knock to all British boot fitters? That wasn't my objective.

To Clarify. All 20 of the group i'm with are Ski Instructors. Also at the boot fitting class were Canadian and Australian Instructors who were skiing in Wrongly fitted boots. Even a level 4 Instructor.

It just seemed strange that everyone in the British group had boots from S&R and EB. All too big. Canting way out. Wrongly made footbeds etc,etc.

Obviously there will be good and bad fitters in every Country.

Unfortunately on this occasion it didn't look good.

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Interesting.

A snowHead

spud, No I drew on some experience I had from a couple of professional boot fitters and a trainer at S&R.

Yes it does seem strange that all had incorrect fitting boots, cant really comment on this. Note on canting though, most people should never have to touch canting if correct footbeds have been fitted.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Robsaan,

Ok...no worries. Apparantly the Boot fitter we were with, trained 2 fitters at S&R in Manchester. I don't know whether they are still their though.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

spud, amazing that instructors don't understand about correctly fitting boots!

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

CEM, it was more they are in their boots all day long so would want to learn PDQ about comfort....

After all it is free

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Robsaan,

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

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You know it makes sense.

Where's the animal one? Everyone knows it's simply not whether Brits can fit boots, it's just that you can't do it IN the UK. wink

Add my conceited self to your list of ex-SnR boot-fitters that don't suck wink

On a more serious note, not with standing that I have very little respect for people who choose to hang out on nursery slopes.

SO MUCH OF THE BLAME FOR THIS SHOULD BE COMING FROM THE IDIOTS WITH THE BOOTS ON THEIR FEET.

Boot fitters can only do so much. The bottom line is YOU have the boots on your feet. Your wannabe "ski instructors" should be able to tell the fu¢king difference between a boot that fits and a boot that doesn't.

It amuses me so much that:

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

CEM, thanks for the insight.

I am probably one of those people who now has boots that are too big. The problem is that after 3 years of trying to get my boots to "wear in" all I had was pain in the toes of my right foot as one foot is slightly bigger than the other. My left foot was great, but the right foot was terrible, it wasn't toe nails, it was simply that my 2nd to big toe was right at the end of the boot. After skiing in pain for 2 seasons, I decided on getting new boots which were 25, up 0.5 from 24.5 despite being told that a 24.5 was my size. It may well be that after another season they'll be too big, but that was the risk I was willing to take at the time as I was fed up with foot pain! I wasn't told when I bought the other boots that they could be made bigger if needed, and I'm not sure if ultimately anything can be done with the length, but what's done is done. If I'd joined Snowheads before now I would have known there were other options out there Smile

A snowHead

handbag, they most certainly can be made longer, but many shops don't want o go down that route, most often it is shape or height rather than just length, and maybe just the addition of a good footbed or a little padding got hold the foot to the back of the boot

good luck with the ones you have, you now have the information to know what should work and what can be done to make it work in the future

ski happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

....the disappointing Sex Pistols comeback single?

"I aamm a pedorthist. I aamm a podiatrist...."

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Think it might be too late to get my old boots back off my friend that I gave them to earlier this year, in fact I'm meeting up with her tomorrow in Austria. If she's not 100% happy with them I'll grasp the opportunity to get them back lol

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

fatbob, WTF????

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CEM, responding to the ... in the thread title.

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fatbob,

CEM, Mrs AR is on her own next week - I've read , listened and learned from the thread!

After all it is free

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Does anyone have any experience of buying foootbeds/boot fitting from Ellis Brigham in Castleford?

I feel as though I ski a little knocked kneed even though i have a fairly neutral stance when not in ski boots, so I wanted to see an expert to see if either the boots can be adjusted or whether custom footbeds will correct this.

Alternatively can anyone recommend any boot fitters close to Sheffield?

CEM, really interesting reading your posts, just wish i lived a little closer so i could come and see you!

Help!!

Boot fitting in the Uk...

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