 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm an intermediate boarder and love seeking out fresh snow. This nearly always means going off the piste a little bit. I mostly just go off where I can cut a large corner or cut between two runs where I can see a piste somewhere below. Sometimes I end up out of site of any pistes, but that doesn't happen very often, and when it does, I know I'm still above a piste somewhere, so it is most likely avalanche controlled.
I've always called this kind of deviation off-piste, but always thought it's not really off-piste, more "off the piste", and not far enough off to require a guide. I obviously always make sure I have off off-piste insurance because I understand that "normal" insurance just covers you for staying completely on the groomed pistes.
I have little to no knowledge of how to spot potential avalanche, and have none of the avalanche safely gear, so this is why I always stay fairly close to or above the pistes.
So my question is, is it really off-piste if you only go as far off as I am describing? and am I being dangerous, and should I always stick to the piste unless I have the avalanche knowledge and gear, (or a guide) or is it fairly safe if I stick close to or above the groomed pistes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oops, just realised I've posted this in the wrong forum. If a moderator could move it to "The Piste" that would be great. Thanks
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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is it really off-piste if you only go as far off as I am describing?
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Yes.
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am I being dangerous
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Depends on the conditions, doesn't it? But since you say yourself that you know nothing about judging snow conditions, then quite possibly, yes.
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Lizzard, +1 from me, I have seen avalanches only a few meters from the piste, I know one resort where right next to one piste there is a really bad avi risk, the locals and people in the know never ski it, it always looks really tempting and usually goes days after a snowfall because someone with no experiance gives it a go!!!
Grezzo, Welcome to Snowheads, and I would suggest getting as much knowledge as possible. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I know I'm still above a piste somewhere, so it is most likely avalanche controlled.
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that doesn't follow. Also, it only takes a very small slide to leave you in concrete-style snow up above your knees and completely unable to move - a Snowhead posted a sobering story of having that happen to him within a metre or so of a piste.
I'm not at all knowledgeable about avalanche risk either, though I've read some stuff.... I've had several off piste lessons (with an instructor, not a guide) and the instructor has pointed out places which are safe, and not so safe - for example where snow has been deposited on a leeward slope. I now know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Have a lesson with an instructor and ask him or her to take you off piste - great fun.
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short answer is yes, you could be getting yourself into dangerous spots without knowing it
there are some places between pistes which will be as safe as you can be but you need to be able to read the terrain around you in order to judge that
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That counts as offpiste, and yep could potentially be dangerous.
I think lots of people (certainly myself) got into offpiste in a similar way, but given that you enjoy it you might as well educate yourself too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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1) topic moved
2) yes, it's off piste and yes,it's dangerous. I've personally seen an avalanche let go underneath a lift, 15 yards from the piste. Two skiiers were carried a couple of hundred yards and buried. At least one was hospitalised with serious injuries - I never found out how it turned out but last I heard the prognosis was not good. On another occasion I remember taking the Tommeuses lift in Tignes with a friend when he pointed out a small depression where one of his colleagues had been buried and killed a few seasons previously
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Just be very aware if skiing above pistes as well. The piste patrol would take an extraordinarily dim view of anyone setting off a slide onto a piste, and you could even end up in court if it causes injury. It's not just your safety that needs consideration...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you are skiing between two blue pistes and you can see down the slope to the bottom of the piste from where you are standing (that is, it is not a convex slope) then you would be very unlucky to get avalanched. The slope would no doubt have had a lot of skiers on it during the season which would have reduced the risk.
In your example I would certainly be wary where you can no longer see the pistes, even if it is just a short cut. I would also pay attention to where my "off piste" had steeper sections than the main piste or terrain traps.
Remember poor old Rafe Hattaway at Tignes:-
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/off-piste-avalanches/
In this case, early season so no skier compaction and a thin snowpack leading to the formation of depth hoar (weak layer) plus a cross loaded slope. An "avalanche expert" might be able to identify those conditions for the slope in the link but he (or she) would not be able to tell you if skiing that slope would trigger a slide, just that it had the potential to slide.
A thought about avalanche control, a pisteur said this "we can detonate a charge that is equivalent to 500 skiers doing jump turns down the slope, nothing happens, a patroller skies the slope, nothing, his colleague skis down and the whole face goes and buries him".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mmm I am stood by the side of the piste taking this pic, the piste is about 150m below me, there is a nice lift and a cool looking slope to put some fresh tracks down, its 2.30pm sunny day did I ski it? Hell no
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Remember poor old Rafe Hattaway at Tignes:-
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I was at school with his brother, Max, and knew the accident had happened but not that it was so 'off the piste' as opposed to 'proper off piste / backcountry'. Sobering read.
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You know it makes sense.
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A lot of talk about Avalanches here.
Dont forget Pistes are prepared slopes , buldozed,, trees cutdown ground flattered i.e virtually no obstacles.
Skiing between the Pistes is Off Piste but hazards exist ( alot of rock debris is still left from when they originally carved & graduated the slopes ) which may only lie just under the surface. I've seen many folk skiing just going off the piste in Rendl, St Anton & fall foul of these hidden rocks & obstacles. Over the years quite few have had to be Helicopter'd off the hill.
As a follow up on Avalanche. I have mentioned before here, a few seasons ago an American died in an Avalanche in Lech Am Arlberg just 5 metres from the side of the Piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
I would also pay attention to where my "off piste" had steeper sections than the main piste or terrain traps. |
That's largely what I go by.
If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder.
But not into a much steeper side slope off the piste, unless I have someone with me who knows the local terrain and snow history better.
A clear case of questionable safety is the piste wind its way down along the ridge, the sides slopes off steeply, with beautiful looking powder. One would be tempted to drop into it and then cut back onto the piste below. But depends on the angle and the condition, it maybe a avalanche waiting to happen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| livetoski wrote: |
| I am stood by the side of the piste taking this pic, the piste is about 150m below me, there is a nice lift and a cool looking slope to put some fresh tracks down, its 2.30pm sunny day did I ski it? Hell no |
Out of interest, why not? Was there some specific reason that made you think it was unstable? I'm not saying it looks fine, I have no idea without knowing a lot more about it, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.
From that picture it looks like it is well skied and there has been no snow for at least a couple of days or more. A lot of people would say that was safe (and they could be very wrong).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the sun, 2.30 in the afternoon (peak avalanche time), presumably a fair bit of fresh snow? (he says fresh tracks possible - so can't all be tracked). Can't really judge the angle of the slope well from the photo but I guess it's in the risky range. I don't know much about it either, but that's my guess.
I want to know where he is that has lifts that quiet and pistes with easy to access fresh tracks at 2.30 on a sunny afternoon though...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Now then... I'd like to chuck a spanner about here... as afar as all the safety issues go... yep... seems to make more than perfect sense.
But I think that there are 3 classifications...
1. Piste
2. Off the piste (as Grezzo originaly suggests)
3. Off piste / or the preferred Americanism of Back Country.
IMO there does need to be a clear indication between skiing lift accessed back country / off piste, and that of playing about on the bumps and lumps the other side of a lolly pop.
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OK, let's do a survey...
....be honest Snowheads, how many of you have TODAY ventured off piste without a tranceiver, shovel and probe? Did the rest of your skiing companions have said equipment?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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me... with 2 skiers and 4 boarders (2 of which with only 3 days under their belt) ... through a long couloir. Nobody had any of the listed equipment.
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sah, bobmcstuff, The slope has been skied but over to the right of the photo, some SH's will know this run and the resort, the photo was taken maybe a week after the last snow  plus it was a few years ago
As stanton, says there are sometimes other reasons such as rocks and debris.
The slope is approx 30 degrees, it hardly ever goes but with the sun for a couple of days and the chance of hitting something under the snow I was not going to risk it.
Yep I skied down the right hand side in the morning a few times, its actually a marked off piste black down the right hand side.
The tell tail sign is that no locals had gone down the left were you can see the fresh snow.
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How does that compare to the in-bounds and out-of-bounds categories in the States? As far as I'm aware, all in-bounds territory is patrolled and therefore covered by insurance in the USA. The OP's 'off the piste' description isn't covered in Europe - so if you've regular insurance and you fall over and break your leg between the pistes in Europe and you are without a guide, you had better get yourself back onto the bashed stuff before calling piste rescue - doesn't sound so appealing now does it?
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Scampi Dellahanti, it just means ou get insurance that allows skiing offpiste, with/without a guide depending on your needs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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clarky999,
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it just means ou get insurance that allows skiing offpiste, with/without a guide depending on your needs.
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but that is getting more difficult, the company who I used last year, covered off piste without a guide, but this year their small print has changed to guided only.
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| abc wrote: |
| If the "piste" is a strip down a face of similar grade, I'd go off the side to harvest the powder. |
Not good advice if that's the only criterion you use in deciding whether to leave the piste. If the run is a steepish red or a black you are skiing on terrain which is exactly at the "sweet spot" for avalanches in terms of the slope angle. The piste will obviously be safe as it has been bashed, but just because the off-piste a few metres either side is at the same angle it does not mean it is also safe. There are factors which could make the off-piste unstable, even just a few metres away from the piste.
I think I am right to say that there are more avalanche deaths within 100m of a piste than there are miles in to the backcountry (because that's where more people will be skiing). Proximity to prepared slopes does not guarantee a slope will be free of avalanche risk, even if it is at the same gradient and aspect as the nearby piste.
To the OP I would say read up about avalanche awareness, especially how the gradient of the slope influences the snow stability, how the aspect (direction the slope faces) influences things and how wind direction influences things. Then read the avalanche bulletin in resort each day so you can begin to make informed decision about what is sensible and what is excessively risky.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There are factors which could make the off-piste unstable, even just a few metres away from the piste.
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Could you suggest a few example of those "other factors"?
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abc, of course, these for example: wind loaded slopes, cornices, buried surface hoar, depth hoar, concave slopes. All these "other factors" (although I'm not sure why they deserve the ironic quotation marks) can be killers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| waynos wrote: |
| rob@rar, I agree with what you say to the OP but I'm not so sure a typical red or black angle is in the "sweet spot" range. There's a very good thread on this issue here, which you contributed to. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=46998 |
Maybe not the perfect sweet spot, but under the right conditions slopes of that grade will slide.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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dudes
surprised half of you
ever get out of bed each day
but
a nice bit of off piste
along side a nice shallow pitched piste of red or blue
or up to 20 degrees or so
if just fine
if it has the same characteristics
just need some knowledge based judgement
ok bye
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 2-02-12 7:07; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| When avalanche risk is high (3 or above) the advice of sticking to low angle slopes is often quoted and seems very sensible, given the sweet spot for slab avalanches is around 39 degrees. I'd always assumed that low angle slopes would be the equivalent of red pistes or less, but if a European black is typically 20º (with some steeper pitches) would sticking to slope angles that are roughly equivalent to black pistes be considered "low angle"? |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Voice of Treason, LOL spot on
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I reckon it's pretty difficult to give abstract advice on this. The nature of anything off piste is that it has not been prepared and is not predictable. That risk could come from a sheer unseen drop off, a gully or stream, river full of freezing water, ice, sharp rocks, tree stumps, hidden fences, Anthony Gormley's statues or indeed avalanche risk. What can seem quite simple one second can become complicated, serious and dangerous without warning. By and large that shouldn't happen on piste (where the risk is more often speed).
So without knowing which bit of off the piste you are talking about I would have to say treat it as off piste, have the kit and take a guide. That could of course be nonsense if you are talking about a flat piece of pasture with no risks anywhere near. But the greater the uncertainty, the less you can manage the risk, the greater the caution you should exercise or the higher the risks you must accept responsibility for running (and those risks could extend to your friends and family, the rescue team or the punter on the piste who you release an avalanche on). Your choice, your responsibility. Is what I reckon.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Scampi Dellahanti wrote: |
| so if you've regular insurance and you fall over and break your leg between the pistes in Europe and you are without a guide, you had better get yourself back onto the bashed stuff before calling piste rescue - doesn't sound so appealing now does it? |
Direct Travel charge TEN POUNDS for off piste cover for a week. It's not cost that keeps you on the piste!
Anyway, people die on the piste in avalanches each year - a small child in Saas-Fee just about Christmas-time this season. Perhaps everybody should always ski with a transceiver. (Plenty of posts on Snowheads on that topic!)
As the Voice of Treason says, do you ever cross a road? (Or are you the sort of person who rings the police because he sees a figure standing on the edge of a roof about to jump, only to realise it's one of noza's Gormleys.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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James the Last, do you check for traffic when crossing the road, or just stride across blindly?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| James the Last, do you check for traffic when crossing the road, or just stride across blindly? |
more accurate question might be: do you only cross roads at a pedestrian crossing?
I'm curious to know the answer to the question from jellylegs, I don't see that many people with helipacks and shovels etc, lets face it going skiing/boarding is seen as risky to most people who don't, but there must be some difference between going into the powder at the side of a blue/red compared to other terrain.
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| zebedee wrote: |
| ... but there must be some difference between going into the powder at the side of a blue/red compared to other terrain. |
What difference do you think that might be?
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This thread just made me think of a pic I took in Easter 2006 of the avalanche run-out that took out a chairlift and spilled across a blue run at Les Deux Alpes ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It seems I take more risks than a lot of you... 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| James the Last, do you check for traffic when crossing the road, or just stride across blindly? |
 The point I was making is that it's dangerous whichever way you do it.
In St Anton at the start of January (danger level 4/5 for the slopes they managed to open), where I was staying there was a group of 14 boarders who had an "awesome" time off piste in waist deep or more powder. Did they have avo gear? No. Had they even heard of it? No. Had they done any training? No. Had they been doing this for years, several weeks a year? Yes.
Were they the only similarly-equipped people on the mountain? Obviously...
Did I join them? No.
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