 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Im sure the knitted headgear would have saved him
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That was a very loud splat. 
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Sobering! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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God Dammnnn
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Not according to this
The Burlington Free Press reported a guy died after hitting a tree in Sugarbush, Vermont USA.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I saw an accident just like that from a chair in Snowmass. The skier died.
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That's sobering to watch. Don't think a helmet would necessarily help - lots of tree deaths are blunt force chest trauma.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wont be opening that link
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I normally think of hitting a tree as happening when skiing between closely spaced trees but he just did a gradual curve directly onto a tree at the side of a wide piste. How on earth did that happen? Obviously speed beyond his/her abilities, but even so.
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Travelling faster than the two guys in front of him, then it looks like he nearly catches an edge to me, and is totally out of control (and in a slight snowplough stance?) after that point. Ironically he would have been better off if the edge had caught properly and he'd just hit the deck.
It reminds me of my sister belting past me at about 60mph shouting 'I don't know how to stop' whilst laughing uncontrollably a few years back on her first ski trip. 
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You know it makes sense.
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SnowSquirrell, That's a great vid with a happy ending. But, can't ignore the fact that the guy took off on a jump heading straight for a tree. What did he think the likely outcome might be? So, all the dudes on film tell us to wear a helmet because of what happened to Danny. Bizarre.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, It's a mixed signal video with lots of hypocritical statements, however, underlying point is definately in your face. I wear a helmet anyway, but I have forwarded that to my non-helmet wearing friends. Wonder if anything will change....!
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Poster: A snowHead
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SnowSquirrell, well... if your friends are considering going off a jump without checking that there's a huge tree right where the landing is, then, yes, I guess they need helmet and full body armour and education.
And yes, the film makers took cynical to the max; let's make a film about Danny's life-threatening prang, have his family and friends blubbing on screen, and get it sponsored by, wait for it... a helmet brand. What you should really send to your friends is something that discusses how to avoid such impacts in the first place because it isn't a great idea to hit your head with or without a lid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hitting trees at speed with your head is bad news with or without a helmet. Given the range of protection of ski helmets it's unlikely they'd have kept either person without serious injury. Videos like the one above with Danny aren't helping people make informed decisions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| I normally think of hitting a tree as happening when skiing between closely spaced trees but he just did a gradual curve directly onto a tree at the side of a wide piste. How on earth did that happen? Obviously speed beyond his/her abilities, but even so. |
That's the kind of accident any experienced skier would very easily avoid. Poor guy was well out of control and didn't know how to react. You see people skiing like that all the time to be honest, so it's a wonder crashes like that don't happen more often.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
That's the kind of accident any experienced skier would very easily avoid. Poor guy was well out of control and didn't know how to react. You see people skiing like that all the time to be honest, so it's a wonder crashes like that don't happen more often. |
I think they do but at least in Europe there is generally the luxury of an unforested run off area and most people have the sense to fall over rather than trying to hold it together.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Friend of mine hit a tree pretty hard last year - for some reason she decided using her head to stop would be better that her leg!? Shocked
Smashed the helmet, but apart from some minor concussion, she was fine.
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stuarth, which is why anecdotal evidence is not very useful. You can hardly tell the outcome in the same situation if the person wasn't wearing the helmet.
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| I wont be opening that link |
It's not gory.
I see far too many people skiing far too fast in that same racing snowplough stance the victim had. Let this be a timely warning to all those people who don't bother with lessons and equate velocity with ability.
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It's a very common way to check out. In the US you very often see little shrines on trees at the side of the run and you read about tree-related ski deaths all the time. Don't see it so often in Europe. Less trees per km of run obviously but is it a grooming issue? If that run had been left natural, that guy would not have been hooning down like that, he wouldn't have been able to.
Just about ALL who ski/board on such groomers travel at speeds way above 15mph, the speed at which it is generally accepted that a helmet makes no difference, so this, for certain, is where technique/mountaincraft debate should start and helmet debate should end.
PJSki, maybe not gory but a sickening thud all the same. Not everyone's taste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
PJSki, maybe not gory but a sickening thud all the same. Not everyone's taste. |
I think everyone should see this. You can't beat a graphic example.
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Bode Swiller, I thought it was not so much the speed at which it makes no difference, but the speed above which a helmet cannot totally withstand? So it could still be better than nothing.
But anyway, that video's pretty grim...
As PJski says nothing like a graphic example.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bobmcstuff, It's to do with what happens inside the skull under sudden deceleration so helmet makes no odds. Helmet might help cosmetically but the result likely to be the same.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller,
Well I guess it slows down and disipates the force transfer with the energy absorbed, spread out and disipated by the helmet, giving your brains natural helmet a bit more of a fighting chance.
There do seem to be quite a few reports of this in N. America (such as the other one I mentioned), and I guess it is due to the type of runs which are narrower and treelined, as opposed to prevalance of European motorways. In fact the very first time I went skiing (in Lake Louise) one of the lesson group shot off the side of the piste, hit a tree, and broke her leg.
Not sure this one was anything to do with the type of run (you could just as well hit a rock, lift pylon, etc if there weren't trees), or the grooming, but just rather unlucky. Very sad
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| stuarth wrote: |
Bode Swiller,
Well I guess it slows down and disipates the force transfer with the energy absorbed, spread out and disipated by the helmet, giving your brains natural helmet a bit more of a fighting chance. |
Maybe clutching at straws there. If your head goes from say 25mph down to 0 mph in 0.00 seconds you're in trouble either way. It's bad enough when you walk into a door at 2mph.
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You know it makes sense.
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I suppose it also depends on the type of crash - obviously if you nail it headfirst into a tree (or anything else) at 30 you're screwed either way but a lot of falls involve a bit of tumbling first so your head would potentially be going a lot slower by the time it actually hits something, plus it would presumably also help with any glancing blows on the way.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| stuarth wrote: |
Bode Swiller,
Well I guess it slows down and disipates the force transfer with the energy absorbed, spread out and disipated by the helmet, giving your brains natural helmet a bit more of a fighting chance. |
Maybe clutching at straws there. If your head goes from say 25mph down to 0 mph in 0.00 seconds you're in trouble either way. It's bad enough when you walk into a door at 2mph. |
Not really any clutching going on, just a bit of physics. That is exactly the point, the deformable liner of a helmet ensures your head doesn't go from 25 to 0 in 0.00 seconds, it slows down that deccelaration. It also spreads the load so you are less likely to crack your skull. I'll dig out a picture of the remains of my friends helmet and you can see how destruction of a helmet helps (it takes energy to do that damage) - this is also why cars are a bit squishy in the right places
I'm not really trying to promote the use of helmets or not, personally I've dented two into submission, and also seen (and heard!) someone I was skiing with hit a tree at pretty high speed with one on, so I'll keep using my mightily expensive one. The only two people who I'll insist have to wear one are my son and I.
But do agree that if you hit an immovable object hard enough you are in big trouble whatever, so the best thing is not to.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That is horrific... why are the trees not cut back a bit further from the piste? Would this stop such events happening?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| tomb wrote: |
| That is horrific... why are the trees not cut back a bit further from the piste? Would this stop such events happening? |
No, you'd just be a bit further over when you hit the trees. What would you do? Chop all the tress on the mountain down?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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no but if there were a buffer zone to the side of the piste where the snow was un-pisted and bumpy then surely this would stop or slow you down before you eventually arrived at the trees??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tomb wrote: |
| no but if there were a buffer zone to the side of the piste where the snow was un-pisted and bumpy then surely this would stop or slow you down before you eventually arrived at the trees?? |
Or launch you higher into the trees. The real answer with no disrespect intended to the victim here, as we have no idea what the circumstances were, is to not ski outside the limit of your control.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| tomb wrote: |
| no but if there were a buffer zone to the side of the piste where the snow was un-pisted and bumpy then surely this would stop or slow you down before you eventually arrived at the trees?? |
Or launch you higher into the trees. The real answer with no disrespect intended to the victim here, as we have no idea what the circumstances were, is to not ski outside the limit of your control. |
+1
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| Quote: |
Less trees per km of run obviously but is it a grooming issue? If that run had been left natural, that guy would not have been hooning down like that, he wouldn't have been able to.
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No doubt natural trails tend to keep speeds down. They problem is that this season there's been very little natural snow. So in Vermont this year it's almost all man-made, which needs to be groomed. On top of that, man-made snow is much icier & gets scraped off easier. Not sure if that's what led this skier out of control, but these accidents/deaths seem to be happening a lot this year in the Northeast US. While not the only reason, this season's weather is certainly a contributor
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It's not a lot different to motorcyclists on our roads, you can't protect them from everything, you can only educate and hope they take note, the only difference is there are a few more enforcements in place for motorcyclists, anyone can get on a pair of skis.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| stuarth wrote: |
Bode Swiller,
Well I guess it slows down and disipates the force transfer with the energy absorbed, spread out and disipated by the helmet, giving your brains natural helmet a bit more of a fighting chance. |
Maybe clutching at straws there. If your head goes from say 25mph down to 0 mph in 0.00 seconds you're in trouble either way. It's bad enough when you walk into a door at 2mph. |
Not really any clutching going on, just a bit of physics. That is exactly the point, the deformable liner of a helmet ensures your head doesn't go from 25 to 0 in 0.00 seconds, it slows down that deccelaration. |
25mph is too fast to survive even with a helmet. Helmets are only rated to 15mph.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can't understand how any of the skiers arm going that fast on such a gentle slope
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8611, watch that vid in the opening post. They are.
According to American research I've seen that I don't think is available on the web (Carl Ettlinger and others), average speed on a groomed blue run is nearly 27mph. Helmeted skiers go faster on average by 3mph, snowboarders and females slower. Fastest are helmeted male skiers, who are also heavier and have higher kinetic energy. A helmet is made to withstand a 14mph hit. Research on brain damage reckons the deceleration on the brain of a 12mph hit is enough to cause serious brain damage. Go figure.
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