 Poster: A snowHead
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Lots of my mates play soccer regularly. Some go running, some play badminton, squash or tennis. Others prefer mountain biking, hill walking or surfing. And some ski. But get this difference: only the skiers have the urge to pay people to tell them how to enjoy themselves.
Why are we skiers so obsessed by lessons? Is it because we're so middle class and stuffed with cash that we can't resist a bit more conspicuous consumption? Or this there some nobler reason?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Maybe our national football team wouldn't lose to Northern Ireland if a few more people took football lessons 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not - I've had no lessons for downhill skiing except for a couple of hours on a dryslope before my first trip. I enjoy my skiing. I ski at a perfectly adequate standard for what I want to do. I have enjoyed teaching myself to ski. I am now teaching myself to telemark.
However I have recently joined Huntly nordic ski club and have been getting some roller ski coaching at the club so I can see some advantage to lessons where your faults are pointed out and shown exercises to improve your technique. So I can see the value of lessons with a good instructor for a specific reason.
However I still can't see the reason for taking week after week of group lessons
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, can many people improve their technique without some sort of tuitiion?
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Jonny Jones, you're right that lessons in the other activities would be similarly helpful to increase skill but are not undertaken. I think that where skiing differs is that the standard of recreational skiing in England is understandably absolutely lower than the standard of recreational skiing where you can engage in it regularly (like the foothills of the Alps, where i suspect the locals are less obsessed by lessons), and is relatively lower than the standard of football, badminton, tennis amongst those who play these regularly here. And whilst to practice any activity at a competent level does bring more enjoyment of it, this is particularly so with skiing. Getting to the level where one is able to consistently exercise carved control, varying speed and turn-shape over varied terrain is not truly a high competence but is not achieved by so many UK skiers. However should that level be achieved, the enjoyment derived from skiing rises to another plane entirely from that derived by those who may be somewhat hesitant skidders.
Also those without the skills to ski fast still do so and it endangers others in a way unlike that seen in the other activities you mention.
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hyweljenkins, the answer is no, which is why so many people end up on the so called intermediate plateau, it's relatively easy to get to the stage where you can happily parallel ski a red run and that's where many people stop having lessons, they will attempt a black but won't be confident doing it and over time they'll get a bit faster and a little smother in their skiing but they won't progress very far.
There always exceptions of course, people who take to skiing naturally and progress at a rate that others would find astounding, but such people are rare
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Sorry instructors, but it's amazing how quickly you can progress by skiing with people a little better than yourself. The trouble with lessons - especially group lessons - is that your piste mileage per hour is often very low. Ski with your mates, and you'll tackle lots of challenging runs at speeds that just stretch you - and you'll have a great time too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Plenty of people take golf lessons, which I think in many respects is similar to skiing (small changes to technique make a huge difference to outcome). Lots of people who enjoy local club football or rugby might have a bit of coaching from time to time, at a team level if not an individual level. A friend of mine is a very good chess player - he has a stack of manuals on becoming a better chess player, so I guess he also takes 'virtual' lessons. I think there's a lot more sports instruction going on than you say, particularly in 'technical' sports and pastimes.
Speaking personally I enjoy lessons, although wouldn't say I was obsessed. I also enjoy free skiing. Both are terrific ways to spend time in the mountains. While skiing with mates who are faster than me teaches me to keep up, it never has taught me to be a better skier (in some ways it made me worse).
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Sorry instructors, but it's amazing how quickly you can progress by skiing with people a little better than yourself. The trouble with lessons - especially group lessons - is that your piste mileage per hour is often very low. Ski with your mates, and you'll tackle lots of challenging runs at speeds that just stretch you - and you'll have a great time too. |
Sorry, but that's not true. It takes you a little way and the more normal effect is just to see groups of fairly weak skiers skiing around at speed mistaking speed for ability. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of skiing quick and I prefer to ski slowly, especially if I'm with people.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ise, well said, plenty of people can ski at speed, unfortunately far fewer people can ski with control and safety at speed, I know who'd I prefer to be behind me
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hear hear
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You know it makes sense.
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| ise wrote: |
| Personally, I'm not much of a fan of skiing quick and I prefer to ski slowly, especially if I'm with people. |
Bµgger! I thought I was doing OK to (just) keep up with you at last season's EOSB!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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i had a couple of lessons a few years back as an intermediate at rossendale. The instructor was called john bolton i think, he was really enthusiastic and tought me how to carve.
In just 2 hours he completely turned my skiing world upside down and gave me a massive boost to my enjoyment as I felt I had progressed another level.
He tought me in just a lesson what I might never have found out myself, it was so easy once he explained what i was doing wrong.
Now when I see a really good skier I want to be able to ski like they do, which is why im going to have lessons to improve my technique and try different stuff.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| Mind you I terrified the group in the other coaching session last tuesday evening when I got very very close to them before I turned, |
I have to admit skiing very, very close and very fast with some BASI people at Zermatt recently was very exhilarating indeed. It'd terrify me on a regular piste with more people around but in that environment it was massively enjoyable, the point of the exercise was to react to do a sort of follow the leader at speed around a meter or 2 apart, skiing on 1 ski, altering turn shapes etc. On a normal piste I want a helmet and body armour just to snowplough but I was quite happy in Zermatt without.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, lots of people on this site are obsessed with lessons, and I'm not one of them, but surely the difference between skiing and all the other sports you mention is that most of us only get to ski for 1-3 weeks each year, whereas if I was equally obsessed with sports like squash, mountain biking or whatever I would do them 2 nights a week/every weekend etc and get pretty good a lot quicker. The trouble with skiing is we all want to get better but don't have the time, and hopefully lessons can be a shortcut compared to just practice.
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Hmm...I have regular ski lessons, at least one a season. Isn't the big difference with this and football etc that there's a rather greater chance that when you get it wrong you fall off a cliff and die??
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homphomp, far more likely is that if you get it wrong you will strain muscles or rip tendons, death is fortunately a relatively unlikely result of poor skiing technique, it is far more likely to occur due to poor skiing weather when you don't see the cliff
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Lots of my mates play soccer regularly. Some go running, some play badminton, squash or tennis. Others prefer mountain biking, hill walking or surfing. And some ski. But get this difference: only the skiers have the urge to pay people to tell them how to enjoy themselves. |
You can get lessons in all the above activities. In fact if your mates did any of the activities, barring hill walking, to a high standard then they'd probably have a coach to help them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, I was exaggerating slightly! My point is that poor technique in skiing can lead to some stunnginly awful life changing injuiries up to and including dying, a few lessons to help you avoid them are well worth the investment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jonny Jones, most people don't get to ski as often as they might do any of the other activities you mentioned, so a refresher lesson when you've been away from it for a year can be a good confidence booster for lots of people.
Also as someone else mentioned, at a higher level, you may well seek tuition in other sports.
Personally, I don't have lots of money to throw at it but while I consider myself to be a reasonably competent skier who can tackle almost anything on the mountain there is no doubt that I can always improve. Therefore, once a year, if possible, I try to get at least one half day of private tuition - sometimes I'll ask to be taken down some off piste I've spotted but am not quite sure how to tackle, other times I'll ask for pointers on my technique. It's all learning really.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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D G Orf, that's what I'm saying - doing that sort of thing to a bunch of students is like a stupid midget - You're not big, and you're not clever!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stuarth, I agree lessons are great fun and it's great to meet like minded people too. I haven't had lessons for a few years but intend to get some 2006. Instructors are a mine of information for both on, and off piste, and as you say they do give you the confidence and push you to ski pistes you may not have skied. Another big plus, they help keep all those nasty habits at bay. Nag nag nag.
Our Austrian Ski Instructor used to give me a swig of schnapps if I got chicken - it worked too! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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stuarth, exactly right. Those are all the same reasons that I also enjoy lessons (although not quite as many as you had - I wish). There's also the nervous anticipation of worrying if you're good enough to keep up with the group, and hopefully the blissful relief when you realise that you are!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stuarth - you needed 100 days of ski lessons? Boy, your skiing must be bad! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I disagree with the assertion that we are obsessed with lessons. Certainly not on this site
I think D G Orf analysis (long gaps with no tuition, intermediate plateau) is closer to the typical skier.
There are good reasons for this-
1) Once you are beyond beginner, allocation to a ski class is arbitrary. Go up that wee hill. Ski down. You are in this group or that group.
2) Your free skiing friends cover more kilometres
3) It adds to the cost of your holiday
4) You may not have gained much from your last group lessons, other than being shown around the pistes.
If I won the lottery, I would definitely have a private instructor and also spend more on lessons from a golf pro.
A comparison with Epicski is interesting. That is an American site that is based around instruction.
Sometimes I haven't the faintest idea what they are talking about. It is not just the words they use. If something gets very analytical it can be hard to hold someone's attention.
Occasionally, I think certain contributors do go over the top. For example, threads about the importance of 'breathing' in relation to skiing. It reminds me a bit of old fashion hi-fi magazines, where people tried all sorts of bizzare tweaks to improve their sound systems.
In fairness, I find it difficult to learn much from a written explanation. A DVD is better - but even then it is no substitute for somebody watching you and telling you how to improve.
As regards cost, I could get a weeks half board holiday for what they pay for a few days on one of the Epicski programmes.
Then again, all Americans seem to be able to put a number to their skiing that is widely recognised. I am a level 'X' skier etc etc.. Brits often have lessons in several different countries and there is no agreed standard of measurement. It is the same with golf. All Americans seem to be able to tell you the speed of their swing. They must have more measuring equipment over there.
Epicski seem to have no shortage of takers for their courses either, so maybe I am just a skinflint. The same cost observation also applies to SCGB tuition holidays.
An American viewpoint would be interesting. I am not sure if Epicski is reflective of all North American skiers, or if the fact that they are on that site means they are more keen on tuition than the average US skier.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I didn't do it deliberately, these weren't kids and it's supposed to be a masterclass for experienced skiers, I was just skiing normally, they were just unusually nervous, BTW I've never claimed to be an instructor so please climb down off your high horse.
By the way I am big (which is possibly why they were jumping) and with an IQ of over 150 I could also claim if I were minded to to be clever 
One final point is that whilst the Instructor jumped he also said he wasn't worried and that I'd done nothing wrong
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| As regards cost, I could get a weeks half board holiday for what they pay for a few days on one of the Epicski programmes. |
I think that you might be about to get a squeal of protest from WTFH for that remark 
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Sorry, DG, but when I read your first post, where you said you had "terrified" a group, who were the "other coaching session", I took the "terrified to mean literally that, and the "other coaching session" to infer that either you were taking a session, or you were in a session.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
An American viewpoint would be interesting. I am not sure if Epicski is reflective of all North American skiers, or if the fact that they are on that site means they are more keen on tuition than the average US skier. |
if you go to www.tetongravity.com/forums you will see that not all Americans are as excited about the intricacies of their form as some of the people on Epic... I'm sure there are plenty who don't fall within the Epic or TGR boxes too...
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To the original question:
Skiing is always expensive, while the other sports you are talking about are generally free or cheap. Especially if you're going on a holiday, the extra price of a lesson or two is not much of an addition to the overall cost of the trip. However, the cost of a football lesson makes football infinitely more expensive, since playing football is free (or cheap if you join a league).
A perfect proof of this point is the situation I'm in. I go to university near Whistler, and through the school everyone can get seasons passess for $350 CAD. A group lesson at Whister is I think $100 (!!!!!), so taking just a few lessons already doubles the cost of skiing, something few of us are willing to do. The result is that basically none of my friends (myself included) take lessons. We would probably be able to progress quicker with lessons, but for the most part we are all quite competent skiers/boarders, able to do basically all of the runs, a bunch of back-country stuff, some park tricks, and in general be very much in control while doing all of these things.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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After months of gentle persuasion I finally coaxed my wife to be to go skiing.
She thought a lesson would be useful, so we went into an evening learn to ski group at Sheffield.
The 'experience' nearly caused her to cancel.
I joined the lesson and was, frankly, apalled.
I had a lesson in Tignes, shared with another lad, both decent intermediates.
She explained how to ski on one ski, which I could already do. A good part of the lesson was spent on lifts, then she sensed we wernt impressed and b*ggered off (tipless). Waste of money.
Lessons arnt the be all and end all.
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T-Dub, they do not sound like a lesson problems, more like an instrutor problem.
It is the job of an instructor to find out what their clients want and tailor the lesson accordingly, even group sessions.
Nearly all my skiing in the past couple of years has been in lessons/coaching sessions, not all have been great, but if away by myself at least I am not skiing alone.
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FAQ
plus I know I am making mistakes when I ski and I'm trying to find out what I'm doing wrong and correct my mistakes, oh and build up my fitness as well 
save perhaps when I was a small child I've never skiied into anyone (though I wish the reverse was true) and I wasn't about to start on tuesday, but it was funny to see them jump 
s!!). Lessons speed up the learning process because someone else is pointing out what you're doing wrong, rather than figuring it out for yourself which can take longer.
