 Poster: A snowHead
|
Just got this through
Ski resort discounting has seen the cost of family skiing tumble this year.
Lift passes, ski rental and living costs have fallen between four and 20% compared with prices two years ago according to the Post Office Travel Money Family Ski Resort Report.
Produced in conjunction with Crystal Ski, the report compared prices in 10 resorts.
The exception was Switzerland where the strong franc kept prices higher.
Bulgaria was rated best value for money for beginners at 17% cheaper than in 2010 and costing less than half the price of Italy and Switzerland.
Family ski and boot hire was cheapest in Ellmau in Austria, helping push the Austrian resort’s prices down 11 per cent from their 2009 high.
It made it the cheapest of the ‘Big 4’ European ski destinations surveyed.
In Canada and the US prices have plunged with ‘kids ski free’ deals leading to prices dropping by 23% in Fernie, Canada and 31% in Winter Park, Colorado.
By Diane Evans - Travelmole
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
Bookings have also been hit by a quirk in the calendar which means that Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve fall on Saturdays
|
surely not a "quirk" merely a cyclical problem?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
E mail in today from Pierre Vacances offering up to 30% off.Seen these before,as have many,and often not the bargain they appear.However,one or two nice destinations on offer at good prices,which is a bit of a departure for P&V.
Have to say that,when I was looking to book a while ago,France(by a big margin)was worst value.Its said the likes of Bulgaria are pulling prices back? Maybe,but I want to go skiing,so wouldn't even consider it  Though France possibly retains the lions share,I believe there is a danger it could soon aquire a tag of 'too expensive',aka Switzerland.Its a certain fact,as far as I am concerned,that pretty much everywhere else was better value......so we will be in Austria this Christmas 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Bookings have also been hit by a quirk in the calendar which means that Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve fall on Saturdays
|
I think one of the ways in which ski holiday-makers are becoming more demanding is in wanting more flexibility about timing. Some people will till want a traditional Sat/Sat holiday but others will prefer mid week break, a ten-day holiday, a long weekend break, or to take advantage of cheap mid-week travel and quiet roads.
Yes, it means some more flexible thinking on the part of sellers (especially the super-inflexible French accommodation market) but the North Americans seem to have cracked it.
But the recession is biting everywhere, isn't it? In this last few weeks before Christmas, traditionally a bonanza for retailers, the High Street is full of discounts and sales.
Snowheads hasn't helped, I suppose.  Our enthusiasm for skiing is matched only by the fervour with which we try to persuade people that except for peak weeks there is no need to book months and months in advance.
The current temporary lack of snow underlines the unwisdom of booking in advance for early season holidays (also repeated ad nauseam here). There'll probably be a rush of bookings once it starts falling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| pam w wrote: |
| it means some more flexible thinking on the part of sellers (especially the super-inflexible French accommodation market) but the North Americans seem to have cracked it. |
Know what you mean.I was once mailed an arrival,checkin,checkout type timetable...with no flexibility allowed under any circumstances  The time windows were very narrow,thus any delay would,most likely,put you outside(literally).And yes,it was in France  Though I have skied many,many times in French resorts,I often feel more of a burden to them than a paying customer! In fact,I am very un-demanding...so long as there is snow I'm usually quite happy.From a customer relations POV,the French have a lot to learn? The first thing they need to realise is there exists a big world outside of their borders,and that world will have an influence,whether they like it or not.
Is it just me,or does this attitude thing only affect ski resorts? I have done many summer visits,and never encountered it to any large degree.Certainly,in the countryside,I have found quite the opposite...with pretty much everyone being welcoming and friendly  Perhaps the French just go surly when its cold 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowskisnow, I spend most of the winter in a French ski area and I have no complaints, really, other than the lack of flexibility on accommodation. People are friendly, welcoming, helpful, polite about my French. etc etc. But absolutely inflexible about accommodation times. It's not just France - try booking a holiday in Austria, Italy or Switzerland with most UK TOs - you will have to stick to the timetables THEY have decided.
The industry is clearly going to have to change - and I think that's just one of the ways.
Most French apartment owners who rent out privately seem to rely on the peak weeks to get enough income. There is major excess demand, they can rent their places out for fairly silly prices without trying - in our development a typical 2 bed, new, high quality MGM apartment, right on the slopes, rents for 350/400 euros a week for the non-peak times before the French hols, then 1050/1100 a week. It's absurd, really, but they're all let. I guess things don't change until the customers stop coming - but maybe that will be happening soon.
Maybe the big TOs are suffering more than individual owners? Certainly for the peak weeks there's v little available around our ski area (I've looked for some friends). But it's a no-go area for TOs - perhaps the resorts where lots of Brits go will be harder hit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, North American flexibilty is, to my understanding, largely driven by the domestic market. Americans generally get far less annual holiday time than Europeans so the week long ski holiday is less common. Weekends and short breaks are the norm so flexibility is built in to the system.
... that said TOs and accommodation owners are going to have to adapt if patterns of demand in Europe are shifting - don't hold your breath for widespread flexibility any time soon though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| ctskifam wrote: |
| ... that said TOs and accommodation owners are going to have to adapt if patterns of demand in Europe are shifting - don't hold your breath for widespread flexibility any time soon though. |
| pam w wrote: |
| The industry is clearly going to have to change - and I think that's just one of the ways. |
I’ll say it again, then wait for the shouting.
The users of ski based forums do not make up the majority (or even a significant minority) of TO customers.
If there was a market big enough to make it pay, don’t you thing the industry would jump at the chance.
The simple fact it that people want weekend to weekend ski holidays. Apart from, apparently, SH’s, well the few that post about it anyway.
If there was a market for midweek breaks then I would supply them. There isn’t so I don’t.
Whether you like it or not, the millions of people who board planes each weekend with either their mates or family are the market. Everything else depends on them. What “they” want goes, everything takes second place.
It's just how it is. People take "weeks" off work, school close for "weeks", hotels sell beds by the "week", etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wayne, +1, totally agree
(austrian apartment owner who only sells sat - sat and has sold all 5 peak weeks plus a few off peak in my first season so far)
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Wayne, I agree ... but ...
At the moment we don't have enough demand to warrant shifting how we work ... however few TOs are finding it easy to fill beds and if there was more demand for flexible holidays (there is some already) we'd be mad not to try and find a way of accommodating it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
ctskifam,
I am not saying there isn’t a market for people who want to take their cat on holiday with them from Wednesday to the following Monday and have vegan bread for breakfast and a single room and a hot 4 course meal waiting for them after the kitchen is closed and ...etc
Maybe some SH’s would like to mortgage their house and start a TO or buy a chalet or hotel specifically for these people. I’m positive it will do really well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wayne
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Our Ski Olympic brochure arrived last week. For, I think, the first time, they are running Wednesday to Wednesday at the beginning of this season and then, on 11 Jan, throw in a 4-day weeks and switch back to Sunday to Sunday. This means that their Christmas and New Year peak weeks are Wed to Wed this year. Curious!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
TOs who are doing well and making plenty of money with their present model, or private apartment-owners who can get all the rental weeks they want will no doubt see no reason to change. and clearly everybody buying those Sat/Sat holidays wants just that. Fair enough. BUT easyJet - and other airlines - are running many, many flights every day of the the week into a number of ski airports. I meet quite a few mid week easyJet or other flights (because if anybody visiting us wants to come on a saturday or Sunday they have to organise their own transport from the airport). The airport is full of people carrying ski stuff, rolling off all those flights, Mon - Friday. They're all staying somewhere! I've been doing mid week Geneva runs for 10 years now and each year the airport seems to get busier - it's sometimes difficult to get parking places now, even on a Tuesday, which wasn't the case some years ago.
Also, the "grey pound" is likely to be talking louder in years to come. All we retired baby boomers with money to spare - mortgages paid off, sitting in houses with loads of equity, no kids in school - will we want to travel on the most crowded days of the week? I think not. The way things are going we will soon be the only people able to afford ski holidays!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
Lift passes, ski rental and living costs have fallen between four and 20% compared with prices two years ago according to the Post Office Travel Money Family Ski Resort Report.
|
I would love to see their examples of resorts where lift passes are 4-20% cheaper than 2 years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
stevomcd, maybe there's a fair bit of exchange rate effect in there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
altis, this is in response to Christmas and New Year falling at the weekend this year rather than a liking for Wednesday transfers - they'll go back to weekend changeovers next year.
Wayne, +1. We do take a fair few short break bookings last minute, or for whole chalet reservations but then we don't sell flights and we are small enough to be more flexible. But, even though we do offer it, the percentage of people wanting a short break is relatively small.
The main problem with using this as a business model for a larger tour operator is that people don't actually really want flexible short breaks. Usually what they want are short breaks from Thur/Fri - Sun to so that they can get 3 days skiing with only 1 day off work. I don't think that we have ever had someone enquire for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday for example. So encouraging weekend bookings you are effectively turning down half a weeks rental.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
The "awkward" or indeed the more discerning "silver surfer" market should go to Norway !! They have always marketed a two tier system! Weekdays and Weekend! During the week it is cheaper and at the weekend they charge more for the groups coming up for the weekend! We were looking at buying a place in Trysil and this is how the estate agent has always marketed them! Even so there seems to be less flexibility, weekends or weekdays!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I work for one of those inflexible french accommodation owners. And you are all absolutely spot on. When running a business if 85% of your market wants to come on Saturday and leave on Saturday, not only does this give a better chance of higher yields and better occupancy and, in the case of residences, only require cleaning staff to be employed for one day its hotelier utopia and a total no brainer!
Ski is fairly unique in that it has that it already has exceptionally high occupancy levels compared to beach and city products. We are not nearly so 'inflexible' in our other products and often have them 'open' for any day, any duration, sales. It is a good job ski does deliver this kind of yield too because otherwise there would be no property investment in ski resorts. Considering that properties have to delivery a decent annual return on less than 6 months operational capacity its a tight space to live in at the best of times!
The only point that is being missed here (for France I don't claim any insider info for other destinations) is that you are mainly talking of the UK market which, whilst significant, is a long way from being the most dominant even in low season periods. It still suits the french cultural model to holiday Sat - Sat and clog up their otherwise excellent transport system at the same time - I think it affords a sense of national camaraderie!
Low season still derives a lot of business from the student market (all nationalities) and from the comite d'entreprise in France. It suits both these entities to work on Sat - Sat. The other dominant market which is largely UK and Scandinavian driven is that the charter TO market for whom it still makes (just about) financial sense to fly their own aircraft. The market can only stand a price when the transfers make economic sense so the box for Saturdays gets another tick. And for top of the range product it is still heavily enough sought after and compartively scarce that it deliver excellent yields on an inflexible basis. All of this limits what is available for the more randoms!
However what is changing, and will be of good news to the minority market who resides on here, is that technology is making it much easier to micro manage the yield process and therefore add an element of flexibility that in the days prior to xml feeds and online distribution would have been more costly to administrate than sell. 10 years ago it was extremely rare to find an 'odd duration' available. There is a lot more now, it'll never offer the choice you'll find on Saturday and of course it tends to be available in the resorts/properties with less demand to start with, there are pockets where the local demand patterns vary so check Isola 2000, the Pyrennees and less 'trendy' resorts like Vars and Les Coches.
NB I posted a ranty comment this morning on the that Metro article about sloppy journalism!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
).
