 Poster: A snowHead
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Heading to Utah, snowbasin and powder mountain mostly in mind at the moment.
Having skied Japan earlier this year and looking to push the boundries of off piste/back country sking a bit further is reason for question. Having done most of my sking on piste Australia up to now, avalanche kits etc have not been a consideration but now the question beckons, should I be a lot concerned or just pay attention to reports. I guess the subject is loaded with heaps of emotive and factual arguments so interested to hear all views on what we should be doing at this juncter of progressing our sking.
Should we be buying a kit before going through any gates at these locations or are we able to trust in the opening of the gates as sign of safe sking? Do the local ski shops hire beacons or complete kits?
Should we get a guide to start with?
cheers Richo
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There is emotive argument but there is also proper clear evidence. People who wear beacons get found sooner, and usually by their ski companions. People who are dug up sooner are more likely to live. And people who are in an avalanche who deploy an airbag do best of all. But people still die.
And if you wanted to ski properly off-piste or out-of-bounds with me, and you weren't wearing the kit, I'd say no. I'd want you to be able to rescue me.
If you are going out to go out of bounds through a gate in North America you should have, and will be expected to have the kit, and more importantly to know how to use it. By that I mean the "holy trinity". Shovel/Probe/Beacon. And knowing how to shovel properly saves as much time as knowing how to search properly.
And actually, I now wear the kit inbounds most of the time, you never know when you are going to step out, and I was a minute behind 2 blokes who got buried 3 years ago inbounds in Jackson Hole. One died, but both retrieved quickly because they had the kit.
But there are personal choices to be made
I may not take my airbag with me to JH in December, as I will be unlikely to be going out of bounds with my family, and years like 3 years ago with inbounds slides are extremely rare and I'd also have to ask myself why my eldest son (who I'll ski the steep stuff with) doesn't have one. But I would if I were in Utah, and I will take it for off-piste jaunts to Austria and France this season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Richo - This is a good book to grab:
http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844?tag=amz07b-21
It has a discussion of equipment in it as well as a lot of information about how to determine if a slope is safe to ski or not and the various factors that go into increasing/decreasing avalanche risk.
You should be able to hire a beacon/shovel/probe if you don't want to spend the cash upfront. I'd recommend doing that and putting the money saved into taking a hands-on course on how to use it all and more importantly how to use your brain to avoid getting into an avalanche in the first place.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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also worth mentioning that you can get a lot of powder in Utah without venturing out of the backcountry gates
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wow think Ill stick to the beginner slopes!
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Richo, Great vid which most of us have seen before and commented on the Plastic shovel been used to dig the poor guy out.
As mentioned above, get some training, go with a guide and never ski off piste with people who don't have the minimum gear with them, which is transceiver shovel and probe.
Of thread a little but does anyone know why Avalung put their advertising on this video, it was on line for a while without?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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livetoski
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Of thread a little but does anyone know why Avalung put their advertising on this video, it was on line for a while without?
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It was definitely online before Black Diamond put up this version with their advertising. I imagine they bought the rights from the guy who posted it originally? Video evidence of their product working is quite good marketing. 
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meh, yep thats what I thought, I just read the comments on the full youtube version, very interesting views
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
| also worth mentioning that you can get a lot of powder in Utah without venturing out of the backcountry gates |
+1. Had 80 inches in 6 days in 2010. I'd have worn my airbag to go for a walk there...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| meh wrote: |
livetoski
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Of thread a little but does anyone know why Avalung put their advertising on this video, it was on line for a while without?
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It was definitely online before Black Diamond put up this version with their advertising. I imagine they bought the rights from the guy who posted it originally? Video evidence of their product working is quite good marketing. |
Maybe but according to the comments he didn't even have the avalung tube in his mouth
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I think the answer is that if you're asking the question you won't be doing any out of the gates backcountry (how's that for patronising).
More seriously I have beeped quite often inbounds in N America not because I was overly concerned of avalanche hazzard but on the basis that if there was any incident I'd be able to respond to others or have a chance of being found under primary patrol response or in a treewell incident. It's not hard to release pockets even on controlled slopes or get sluffed out.
Buy the stuff anyway - US is about the cheapest prices globally for avy kit excluding airbags so order online and ship to your hotel.
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You know it makes sense.
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meh, I'll second the book it is very well written and useful. The section on the human factors is particularly interesting for me in my real life (which involves a lot of risk assessment)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I think the answer is that if you're asking the question you won't be doing any out of the gates backcountry (how's that for patronising). |
I guess it is patronising considering you know little about the level of risk taker I maybe.
But could also be deemed perceptive enough to think if I were a large risk taker I wouldnt ask the question in the first place.
To sum me up I want to do it but want to reduce risk to zero! scaredicat!
Looking at the picks your right some of the runs inbounds may be challenging beyond my current skill level but i'm going to at least push myself that far this I am determined to do.
So lets focus off piste inbounds, I am getting the impression many are taking these precautions on double blacks and blacks inbounds is this right? I could be sounding very naive, but as said at the beginning sking in Australia we dont get that much snow so its not a topic Ive ever discussed before. Id rather be patronised by a couple of condasending experts than stuck under a few feet of snow with no understanding of why or how I could of averted it.
I will look into the books thanks for comments so far, even yrs fatbob 
139days till touch down and Ive done two sit ups already, so excited!
cheers Richo
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Poster: A snowHead
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Off-piste inbounds is not usually an issue as it is controlled by ski patrol who wont open it until it is safe to do so - however it is still the wild mountain so inbound avalanches do happen ocassionally though you'd certainly not expect a big one as the big avalanche terrain is bombed often.
Perhaps fatbobs suggestion was more one of fellow snowhead preservation? If you are heading out the backcountry gate you should probably have a guide (who will make you have the right gear), or know what you are doing/where you are going, in which case you will know what gear to take? (Is that patronising too, not sure, don't think I was willy-waving so guess that's all good? )
Just to clarify in N.America you don't go through a backcountry gate to get to inbound off-piste though it may be roped off and the rope closed on an area, in which case it may be unsafe (hence why patrol roped it off). There may also be inbound areas that are avalance prone that have entry gates, which you have to go through such that patrol can close of the area if they feel it is unsafe, however when they are open patrol are happy that your not going to get wiped out, so again same as above.
The backcountry gate is the way out of the inbounds area, at which point you are on your own.
IMHO, inbounds, tree wells are a much more significant danger.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So are trees. If you hit one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Richo wrote: |
Id rather be patronised by a couple of condasending experts than stuck under a few feet of snow with no understanding of why or how I could of averted it.
cheers Richo |
That's some of the wisest words I've read here for a while. Respect
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Richo, Didn't really mean any offence - just if you haven't skied in N America you don't really appreciate what it gives you in terms of scope inbounds. Basically there is lots of terrain you can ski without worrying too much about avy hazard whereas if you go outside the gates you can end up in drainages which take you a long way from the resort boundary or result in a real slog to get out. So local knowledge/topo maps are essential & you won't find the sort of locals you want to be taking you willing to do so without you having the gear. Add in some places boundaries are absolute and if you duck the rope you can have passes confiscated and/or a ride with the local sherriff. Do locals still do it? Of course but they also know how to keep it low profile.
That said I have been inbounds places where ski patrol have basically been insisting everyone is buddied up before skiing an( ordinarily pisted ) run because snowfall has been so heavy there was risk of suffocation. Generally you'll know about this because patrol make it obvious and you'll have encountered challenges driving up the road and delayed lift openings. In relation to general inbounds skiiing I'd say a whistle is your first investment in conjunction with agreeing to keep each other in sight in the trees.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 22-09-11 10:10; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd just like to reinforce the fact that buying the kit is the easy bit, you also need to learn to use it. Lots of people say they wouldn't ski with people who didn't have a beacon/metal shovel/probe but I'd add that I'd want to know that they can use it all too.
The best thing you can do is to avaoid getti ng avalanched. Beacons/bags/lungs are a last resort, educate yourself to give you the best chance of avoiding the problem in the first place.
I rarely ski without my beacon now as I've spent all this money on it, I might as well wear it. You never know when you'll spot a bit of powder and fancy ducking under the ropes.
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| Quote: |
because snowfall has been so heavy there was risk of suffocation
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I know i've touted this before, but having done a bit of inbound tree riding in NA, and having had to extract myself from a tree well as well as get others out too, its worth being aware of the risk. After all if you're not aware of a risk, you can't avoid it.
http://www.treewelldeepsnowsafety.com/
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
because snowfall has been so heavy there was risk of suffocation
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admittedly its a nice problem to have but I've been sat on the chairlift yelling at people underneath to stop and dig out a kid we'd seen fall.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
I know i've touted this before, but having done a bit of inbound tree riding in NA, and having had to extract myself from a tree well as well as get others out too, its worth being aware of the risk. After all if you're not aware of a risk, you can't avoid it.
http://www.treewelldeepsnowsafety.com/ |
good article and an eye opener, again not something we discuss much in Australia.
I have had similar experience though, thoughtlessly treking into trees for a nature break, went straight down to shoulder height. Immediate thought was oh shite, Ive got to be very carefull as to how I get out, or I will sink further and no one was around because I was dilerately hiding for my bio break!
In NA rather than Australia I may not be here to tell the story by the sounds of it.
Looks like I will be proud and bold while making yellow snow in UTAH!
Fatbob, no offence taken, just winding you up, my wink smiley must of missed the mark, heres another one
cheers
Richo
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do a quick google for Hells Canyon Avalanche or similar.
Deaths just outside the Snowbasin ropes are regrettably frequent.
But that said I've had some amazing powder skiing in-bounds at Snowbasin, some days after a storm.
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FAQ
Watch out for the patronisation & willy-waving. 
