 Poster: A snowHead
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Just received my copy of Off Piste by Wayne Watson (excellent read thus far, so thanks to Yoda for recommending). I was wondering if anyone was familiar with the Giles Green self-arrest technique that Watson describes, and if so how easy and successful it is. It seems a simple concept but I'm not sure that if 17 stone of me was hurtling down something steep on my a*se that a quick press up is going to get me upright and admiring the scenery instantly as the photo sequence in the book seems to suggest
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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there's a thread on here somewhere with Snowball relating how this technique probably saved his life
like all these things, i think it's one to practice in a place with a safe run-out
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| BGA wrote: |
| ..I was wondering if anyone was familiar with the Giles Green self-arrest technique that Watson describes, and if so how easy and successful it is. |
Would that be Dixon of Dock Green. Elementary I would have thought.
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I posted recently about an occasion when I had to use this technique when I fell in a steep couloir.
Although it is commonly referred to as the press up technique, perhaps the name is a bit misleading. I think it's important to remember that the physical effort is not the same as a normal gym press up. If say you have fallen on a fourty degree slope you are already way off the horizontal and really what you do is just a quick shove to get your upper body off the snow. All you need is a a relatively small effort to lift yourself probably no more than another fifteen degrees, so you can edge your skis in to the snow, or the toes of your boots if your skis have come off. The key factor, which takes most of the physical effort, is to react instantly and twist your body in the right postion to do the press up. I had never practiced the technique. I had only been told about it but in a very nasty situation I reacted very quickly and it worked.
I am not sure how you would practice it realistically. Obviously you could do it at the bottom of a steep slope, but deliberately throwing yourself head first downhill with skis on, which was how I fell, could cause an injury in itself.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Search for Snowball's thread....it is a heck of a read!
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BGA, The self arrest technique was discussed in this thread.
As you will see, I found it worked! 
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I saw a bunch of instructors being taught it on a steep slope in Jackson Hole this season. They were taking running leaps onto their bellies down the slope head first with skis off, then steering themselves to be foot down, and then self-arresting. Looked good. Must try. Thanks for the reminder.
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Thanks for the input, obviously worth putting some practice in. It would seem that the trickiest bit is getting yourself feet first and on your stomach, especially if your skis have stayed on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BGA,
That is absolutely correct. When I fell I was going head first downhill, so I had to twist myself around to get the right way up in one movement before doing the press up. It's important to do it instantly or else you may be going too fast and when you try and dig yourself in, there is a danger that you will just flip over again. If at all possible you really need to get it right first time or you might not get a second chance.
When I fell both skis came off and I think that probably made it easier. The snow in the couloir was about three days old and was good enough to make the run worthwhile (says he afterwards) therefore there was enough snow for me to be able to dig my toes in and come to a stop.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I skied the very icy (well it was at 9.30am) mougled black glacier run at Val Thorens at the EoSB with an experienced climber but 2 only a 3rd week boarder. He fell at the top and managed to stop within about 50m or so by spreading his arms out “Jesus Christ Pose” and digging the edge in.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just carry an ice axe - also handy in lift queues 
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Scarpa,
Ski patrol at my local resort were getting abuse for skiing on piste with ice axes last winter 
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You know it makes sense.
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I've used it for real - I was falling, ski-less, accelerating towards a drop off with trees, head first, down a crisp slope on my back. The self-arrest worked, much as richjp described. In the process I was unlucky enough to break a fibula. The most likely explanation was the the sole of my boot slammed into a block of ice, and the shock transferred through to the bone. Even so, the result was preferable to the likely outcome had I not self-arrested.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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achilles, I read that and think (once again  ) why on earth do you all put yourselves in these dodgy situations to begin with. Is the thrill of near death that good!!?
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Poster: A snowHead
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A few years back, I found myself sliding head downhill on my back. I thought : stick the tails of the skis in.
The result was badly bruised knees - the heel bindings released, skis spun round and the tips collided with my knees. I didnt stop until I thought of a better method of self-arrest.
The worst part is struggling back up the slope to retrieve the planks. I always ski at the front of the group now so there's someone there to fetch them for me
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, It's like having sex with Death
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lampbus,
I was always taught that first thing you do when you hit is get on your front head up hill.... I would get abused if I let myself slide around like a big slug (and often that would be on a blue or even a green slope)... I was told it needs to be automatic to get over and head up... so I should practice... I think I need more practice though...
Fred now has me doing that tumble practice.... 
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With the axes we used to lay on our backs with goretex hoods up, have someone grab our feet and slide us at high speed up to an edge and let us carry on down a slope. You got pretty good at getting into the head-up and face down position quickly. As said above, it needs to be automatic no matter what equipment you have as once you have built up speed it becomes very difficult to self arrest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I haven't used the Giles Green method, but have used a technique similar to an ice axe brake, except using a ski stick. Its very effective for getting into a feet first position but less effective for stopping on icy ground.
Basically if you are already falling feet first, you grasp the ski stick in both hands close to the point with a very short amount protruding, jam the point into the snow with the rest of the stick over your shoulder, if you stick it in too aggressively the pole will break. If you are head first you have to jam it in down by your thigh and twist around it.
Its best to practice before you are actually heading towards the cliff edge!
For an alternative check out The Claw at www.life-link.com/accessories.htm which might just kill you before you get to the cliff edge!
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juice, this is like "glissading" with an ice axe, where you vary the pressure on the axe to control the rate of descent.
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| Quote: |
It's important to do it instantly or else you may be going too fast and when you try and dig yourself in, there is a danger that you will just flip over again
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That was my initial thought when I saw the photo sequence of Wayne Watson demoing the technique in his book.
I've always been confused by the use of ice axes as well - I understand their use in climbing or traversing, but presumably when you are skiing they are attached to your pack so if you do fall then you can't get at them?
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| BGA wrote: |
I've always been confused by the use of ice axes as well - I understand their use in climbing or traversing, but presumably when you are skiing they are attached to your pack so if you do fall then you can't get at them? |
if they are attached to your pack that's true. However on hairy traverses you might consider getting your ice-ax out and either holding in one hand or sticking between your rucksack strap and shoulder so you can reach it. Bear in mind that lose ice axes may do more harm than good.
Ski mountaineers generally carry an ice ax for the times that they are walking - climbing couloirs, traversing ridges etc rather than skiing. Extreme snowboarders of course have two hands free to carry axes although whether they can really stop a fall on a 50 degree slope is another matter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks davidof, that was the conclusion I'd come to.
I think the 'all the gear, no idea' theory does play a role here, I remember seeing four guys all with harnesses, ropes, ice axes, crampons etc last season when a friend and I were skiing off the back of Mont Fort. Everything was dangling off their packs which looked a bit daft anyway, but my friend and I thought they might be worth watching becasue, surely, with all that kit they must be good. Anyway they got to the first turn and all four of them stacked it. We then decided they were having an 'Extreme Off' competition with the winner as the one with the most kit. Naturally we skiied past them disdainfully..
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BGA, In my yoof (well middle age, seems like the same thing these days) I used to do some rock climbing. At Stanage Edge, particularly, I noticed there were some blokes walking up and down along the foot of the cliff, with their girlfriends. The blokes had ropes, harnesses, and a racks of kit you wouldn't believe. I think my knees would have buckled if I had tried to climb with it. Never saw those blokes actually climbing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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BGA,
May they just have been using their skis to access some decent winter climbing?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| juice wrote: |
I haven't used the Giles Green method, but have used a technique similar to an ice axe brake, except using a ski stick. Its very effective for getting into a feet first position but less effective for stopping on icy ground.
Basically if you are already falling feet first, you grasp the ski stick in both hands close to the point with a very short amount protruding, jam the point into the snow with the rest of the stick over your shoulder, if you stick it in too aggressively the pole will break. If you are head first you have to jam it in down by your thigh and twist around it.
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I think this method was discussed before. The problem is that I don't think it would usually work on a really steep slope. Somebody previously posted a link to a video clip of an instructor talking about and demonstrating this technique. It was a nice explanation and demo, the only problem being that he demonstrated it on something like a blue slope with a nice little fluffy layer of fresh snow on top. A good technique for beginners and early intermediates on blues and possibly reds in good condition perhaps but not in my view for the steeper stuff. Can somebody find that link?
On a steep slope with this method I feel there are two potential problems:
If you ski with your hands out of your straps which many people do off piste and a few years ago was being recommended by a number of guides, then you will probably lose them in the fall anyway.
If your hands are in your straps manouvering the one pole quickly will be diffficult as both poles will be waving about all over the place and the one you are not intending to use is liable to get in the way. Even if you can get the ski tip in if you are descending rapidly I doubt that it would give you enough purchase. Furthermore you also have to get down so low that your body will be flat to the snow meaning that it will be difficult to get your edges in. On the other hand one of the main objectives of the press up is get your body off the snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Its a bit like the "what to do when being attacked by a lion if you haven't got a rifle" strategy, its far from ideal, but it is an option, when options are limited.
I have used it twice in anger, both on steep slopes, once I managed to break the pole but did stop, the second time it helped me to get my feet below me so I could get my edges in but as I was heading towards rocks even getting my head out of the way was a result.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spyderjon,
That is interesting but still not for me I feel. I think it would be better than using a ski tip because at least you are using the top of the pole rather than having to try and manouvere one hand down to the bottom. I would still question if you go head over heels on a steep slope if you could get enough grip. I see the advertising talks about stopping "slips from turning into slides for life". I suspect they have chosen the word "slip" very carefully. I could see it working in a slip situation but I would not be so sure about a real tumble.
I printed off the instructions however which include this statement:
"CAUTION: The straps on your Flicklock poles DO NOT release. We suggest you remove the straps from your wrists when skiing in avalanche terrain or through trees".
That goes back to what I was saying earlier. In a big fall, not always in dangerous situations, from my own experience and watching others, when the skiers hands are out of their straps then both poles usually go flying. So with their caution statement, they are advising skiers to do something which is liable to render the poles useless as a safety device. This is a product that looks a bit gimmicky to me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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looks lethal
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof,  . That's what I thought.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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richjp, like you, I'm also somewhat skepticle about the "stopping your slide with the pole tip" advice. You made some good points.
Though I do see some variation of the technique that might be what actually worked, as testified by a few snowheads.
Basically, you don't need to really JAM the pole tip to the snow to STOP. All it would take is a little bit of extra friction, either with pole tip or pole handle scraping on the snow, to turn the body around to have feet down instead of head down. Once having the feet down, if you haven't lost your ski, you can then lay them on the snow gently and use the "push up" method to "get up".
What I found in a slow slide (if you act fast enough, hopefully it's not sliding too fast yet), it's actually easier to "get up and ski off" than to "stop and get up in one go". The latter have the potential danger you might topple over head first again.
I suppose there's always slope so steep you don't have time to do all that. Better not fall in such case. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If it is that steep or dodgey you might want to consider a rope...at least to get you past the place were a fall will probably do a lot of damage.
Even my little 12mtr rope is useful for that short exposure...
And as for the point about some guys with a lot of kit...well, a lot of peeps are climbers 1st and foremost and skiing is a belated hobby. A lot of guides have the most emphasis in mountanieering..particuarly outside of France, IME so it is not unusual to see very good climbers with lesser ski skills. I'd guess their mountaincraft would be good tho'.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| achilles, I read that and think (once again ) why on earth do you all put yourselves in these dodgy situations to begin with. Is the thrill of near death that good!!? |
Megamum, a more pragmatic reason for those of us who don't have a death wish. There're times you need to get past a small section of slope in dodgy condition in order to get to the better conditions and/or moderate slopes below. So, being able to safely handle "un-expected" condition that's a little over ones comfort zone is paramount for the more "advanced" skiers.
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| Quote: |
And as for the point about some guys with a lot of kit...well, a lot of peeps are climbers 1st and foremost and skiing is a belated hobby. A lot of guides have the most emphasis in mountanieering..particuarly outside of France, IME so it is not unusual to see very good climbers with lesser ski skills. I'd guess their mountaincraft would be good tho'
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That's true up to a point and having skiied with a few guides I wouldn't necessarily want to ski like they do, in terms of style, but you hardly ever see them fall over or indeed look they are about to. I would suspect this to be true of any serious ski mountaineers, and presumably good mountaincraft would involve developing a solid (if not pretty) skiing technique that prevents you from falling over on your first turn of the day
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I took a tumble in Les Sybles a couple of years ago on a pisted red that was sheet ice with the odd mogul and rock at the side. I had read a few years earlier "about trying to do a press up if it happened" and I am very glad I had read that article. I did not know much appart from that about self arresting techniques but it certainly worked for me.
I felt I was in control when it happened and I was happily negociating some tricky ice and then instantly I was face down head down hill. Instinct told me to get my head up hill and then I thought just go for it and tried the press up. It worked for me. I have no idea how steep the run was but it certainly scared the bejaysus out of me. Others on the same slope at the time stopped and when I got back to my feet I had a few come and check me out.
I am not trying to come accross as some knowledgeable mountain expert I am far from that just an intermediate intermediate, what I am attempting to say is that you can find yourself in a tricky situation, at any level, anywhere very quickly.
Luckely appart from a couple of bruised ribs I was ok, especially as I did not wear a helmet at the time. My prefrence now is to not ski without one.
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FAQ
