 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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meh, cheers will add to list
moffatross, had a Patagonia fleece years ago , great quality , will definatly check this out
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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meh, +1 for the kamchatka, ive got the jacket... paid £114 for mine and its a quality jacket!
Try a moutain hardware trinity jackets, its a fully waterproof softshell
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The Kamchatka is nice, but it certainly isn't lightweight 
I use a Rab Demand pull-on. It is half the weight of the Kamchatka, but still uses a high quality 3-layer eVent fabric and has an excellent helmet-compatible hood. Packs down very well, and by way of a bonus it can be picked up for well under your budget. It is also my usual backpacking and cycling waterproof so I use it quite a lot and I can definitely say that the fabric highly breathable and does as good a job of keeping the rain out as my much bulkier and heavier and more expensive goretex pro-shell jacket.
Everyone+dog does a lightweight active shell top these days; they're a perfectly good (if rather expensive) alternative if you don't feel like you could possibly cope with anything that isn't branded goretex  Should be similar weight and otherwise just as good.
| carbon_copy wrote: |
| i am in the market for a lightweight jacket that will sevre as the top layer in my set up , when the weather turns for the worse on cold days |
It isn't the job of a hard shell to keep you warm... it is there to keep wind, rain and snow out. If you want something to keep you warm, you don't want a hard shell; you want a warm mid for continual cold (that needn't be really lightweight or packable, so fleece is good) or an overlayer for stops (which does get packed, and should be lightweight and compressible so down and primaloft are good).
| carbon_copy wrote: |
| i have a superlight "goretech paclite" jacket that i use for hiking in the uk rain , but dont think its up to -20' and windchill. |
Goretex (and indeed any other waterproof fabric) is totally windproof. This means windchill will only affect exposed skin, and that's the same regardless of whether you're wearing 200g of plastic mac or a kilo of industrial waterproofs (assuming the jacket is in contact with your mid/base layer and not bare skin!). I used some paclite waterproofs as my shell layer for my first couple of trips to the alps and they did the job just fine.
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Serriadh, it's all relative though what you gain in weight savings you lose in toughness. A 250g saving in your jacket weight isn't really that noticeable for ski touring unless you are really aiming for some crazy fast and light setup.
RAB actually have a ski-touring specific shell called the Kickturn this year which looks quite nice but I'm not a fan of the fixed snow skirt.
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sounds to me like the paclite is perfect for your needs, but if you want to splurge on a new jacket, by all means go ahead 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The warmth, as others have said, comes from the mid and base layers. The outer shell is just a wind and waterproof barrier.
One thing to consider tho, is that a windproof fleece mid-layer is not as warm as a regular fleece mid-layer of the same thickness, however that only applies to still conditions. As soon as there's any breeze, the windproof layer is more effective. However, as soon as you put a hard-shell on the outside, the regular fleece is, again, more effective.
This is due to the windproof membrane often being in the middle of the fabric, sandwiched between an inner and outer insulating layer, making an overall more dense fabric. A normal fleece traps more air as it's less dense and so is warmer.
There are tradeoffs no matter which route you go down, but either way, a paclite outer shell would probably do the job just fine, as long as it's got enough room inside for the additional layers. You don't want it tight as that'll affect insulation as well.
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Your Paclite will be fine. That's all I use - or rather, keep in my pack 'cos I rarely, if ever, actually use it. Just bear in mind that it's just a 'waterproof' layer and you'll need something else for insulation.
Check out my packing list here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=91665&start=40
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I used a paclite and fleece for years no problem. Last year I got an arcteryx beta for £200, from SnR and I love it. Still need insulation just the same as with the paclite.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| meh wrote: |
| Serriadh, it's all relative though what you gain in weight savings you lose in toughness. A 250g saving in your jacket weight isn't really that noticeable for ski touring unless you are really aiming for some crazy fast and light setup. |
Sure, but it does comply with the 'lightweight' request in the OP
Whilst the weight might not be so relevant to most people, the pack size can be very important. In the mesh bag that it comes with, the Demand isn't a whole lot bigger than a tin of beans. When I'm hiking I'm happy to take a big bag with me, but when I'm skiing the smaller the rucksack the better, I'd say.
Toughness isn't quite such a big issue for a bit of gear that gets used infrequently. If you're using it often, that's a different matter... but if you're wearing it most of the time, weight and bulk are much less of a problem. It isn't like most people find themselves skiing in rain on a regular basis (though there are of course exceptions) so a cheap, light shell could be practically disposable if you only need to use it for a few days a season.
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You know it makes sense.
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Serriadh, I lug about a windproof and a down jacket in my pack depending so appreciate that point but I strap the Kamchatka to the outside when not wearing it. I tend to always ski with the shell on though so perhaps that's where I differ from others who are skiing wearing something else the majority of the time and are really lugging the shell purely for rain protection.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was looking around for the same reason and came to the conclusion that the Rab Demand pull-on was the one for me. Then I bought more skis and am now brok(ish) so I am praying for 100% sunny skis - sorry 'skys' (bloody planks obsession....) - this season as I have to clamber into the old gear.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| carbon_copy wrote: |
| now i am all confused , are we saying that an all sing all dancing 3 layer "active/pro" shell will offer no more thermal loss protection than a super lite rain jacket , |
The biggest thermal gain is the windproofing. The additional thickness will have some additional benefit, but it'll be tiny in comparison to the gains from just having a windproof covering.
The biggest gain in a 3-ply is robustness, not thermal. A 3 ply will take more abbrasion and damage before failing. A 2 ply with a mesh liner isn't as good, but still decent. Paclite risks the most damage to the goretex membrane, but the gains are in light weight and pack size.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Serriadh, cheers , have to admit to already having bought a arcteryx down hoody that packs down to nought
Great tip about over trousers thanks , as my pants are a quite light weight soft shell , so my Xmas list is now completed .
feef, thanks for the summary, was concerned about the wear and tear on the paclite , especially when carrying skis on pack etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| feef wrote: |
| The biggest gain in a 3-ply is robustness, not thermal. A 3 ply will take more abbrasion and damage before failing. A 2 ply with a mesh liner isn't as good, but still decent. Paclite risks the most damage to the goretex membrane, but the gains are in light weight and pack size. |
Not all three layers are equal either. The face material (that on top of the membrane) can be different and on some jackets is different on different parts. A lot of these very light jackets are designed for Alpine climbing during the summer where you want something light to drag up and down a long, long route without it getting in the way or weighing a lot for the rare times you'll use it. If you do similar with a hardshell and prefer to wear a non-waterproof softshell for most of your skiing then it'd work as well. If not something a bit more robust could be a better bet to get good longevity out of it.
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Well here I am on my way up Mont Thabor having just tried to order 4 coffees and a Coke.
I was wearing:
Base: Icebreaker Skin 200 merino wool (226g)
Mid: Sprayway crew cut lightweight fleece (188g)
Top: Ronhill pertex running top with hood (222g)
Trews: Mountain Equipment Liskamm (540g)
I wore the same, all day every day - come rain (well, heavy drizzle) or shine - for the week.
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Thanks for all the pointers and advice , spent the morning in EB Manchester today trying on all available shapes and sizes of shells , ended up buying a haglofs tilta jacket , nice feel and fit
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ouch ,glad the jacket was unharmed 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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meh, D3O underwear is your friend
I've been looking at the football (the US Fat girls in cheap lycra and can't dance with a ball type) protection gear and the base layer D3O armor stuff looks to be ideal for the casual ski nutter (see above pic) nor info when I can figure how to get it past customs
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, that stuff looks good but holy crap is it expensive.
carbon_copy, thanks! 
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