 Poster: A snowHead
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On another thread there was talk of Tech bindings when locked being equivalent to DINs of 14-25. As most binding setting charts only go up to 12 or so I am wondering why marker for instance sells bindings with DIN up to 24.
Do people ski with DIN's over 12? I know some racers used to set DIN's to their weight in Stone to avoid pre release but at what point do you get into guaranteed leg injury? How strong is the knee joint and bones and what DIN will cause injury?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think they can be dangerous, but then losing a ski can bring its one problems.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have tore out two sets of toe pieces in crashes and bindings set at 11. Most of the crashes I have had "pre-releasing" at speed ended up with a few sore bits but nothing permanent. the one which gave me knee damage was binding at 12.
Other than very slow skiing in no fall zones I struggle to see why one would want to have DIN's at over 12. Racing perhaps and taking a calculated risk?
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I still set the bindings on my race skis to my weight in stone (DIN 12). Not had a knee injury or broken any bones, the skis still come off if I straddle a gate. The formula works because the weight range for male racers isn't very big, if you are training seriously you won't be carrying any extra fat.
Racing is a fairly well controlled environment though. You don't tend to have low speed falls and if you do fall the surface is usually slick enough that you will slow down gradually. I don't think you can really link usage of Tech bindings and race ones.
Marker sells bindings with DIN up to 30.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rjs, Do you see people racing with DIN's at 30? I can think of at least one ex-Downhiller who still carries a limp after crashing at speed with high dins
What would you say is typical max for Tech events ?
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I think a lot of people overdo it, i like my legs
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@skimottaret, The trainees that I have put into the start gate for speed events were all using Salomon and Atomic bindings, from memory we went with DIN 14 for DH. I have never used Marker myself and not had any trainees who did either so don't know typical settings.
I haven't been to any FIS races for several years, BSS won't let me race and I'm not training anyone myself. I guess I can have a look the bindings of French team members in Tignes in November.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
I have tore out two sets of toe pieces in crashes and bindings set at 11. Most of the crashes I have had "pre-releasing" at speed ended up with a few sore bits but nothing permanent. the one which gave me knee damage was binding at 12.
Other than very slow skiing in no fall zones I struggle to see why one would want to have DIN's at over 12. Racing perhaps and taking a calculated risk? |
Arguably less needed in racing, as if you pre-release you'll likely just slide along a smooth track without any dangerous obstacles into safety netting?
Skiing exposed or complex terrain, fast or with drops, where a ski coming off might send you tumbling into rocks or towards a cliff, would be a more realistic scenario.
That doesn't really mean no fall zone skiing, but for example stuff like the FWT.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skimottaret, Mine are at 14 for freeride, cliff drops and losing skis is never good! A lot of WC racers binding start at 12, I know Bode had his in the 20's!
Its all about the force you are putting on the ski and the risk of losing it v the risk of knee injury! You have WC athletes that can weight 80-`110 kg and squat over 200kg that is a lot of force on the binding.
For recreational skier sure anything over 12 would be excessive, my teaching skis are set at 12.
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@Fattes13, how big are your boots?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@skimottaret, 325, I come in about a 10-12 on a regular DIN chart but do get pre release at that when pushing it, I am 105 KG and can squat north of 200kg so quite a lot of power in the legs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Fattes13, my boots are a bit longer so I tend to take it down a notch or two... You may have strong muscles but I wonder how your tib/fib would hold out 
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@skimottaret, That's where the strong skeletal muscle come in, it helps support and protect the bones. At Standard release value (Or DIN in old money) 12 I get pre release in Bumps and on piste on occasion! I had to make a choice with my freeride skis about the risk of pre release v no release.
As above, my teaching skis are at 12, for a number of reasons and the different pressures I exert on both the skis and body while teaching compared to freeskiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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One could suggest  that pre-releasing in bumps (or indeed, on piste) is a function of technique not technology ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, One could make that assumption, but based on my qualifications you would have difficulty supporting it, or maybe I would find it easier to disprove it 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Fattes13, titter
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
On another thread there was talk of Tech bindings when locked being equivalent to DINs of 14-25. As most binding setting charts only go up to 12 or so I am wondering why marker for instance sells bindings with DIN up to 24.
Do people ski with DIN's over 12? I know some racers used to set DIN's to their weight in Stone to avoid pre release but at what point do you get into guaranteed leg injury? How strong is the knee joint and bones and what DIN will cause injury? |
I appreciate that Wc ski racers will crank bindings but as rupture an ACL is extremely common that approach speaks for itself.
There isn't a total safe setting for a binding. I believe they were developed to reduce tibial fractures to which end they are successful.
However i do believe that bindings can be set too high.
I don't subscribe to the nonsense pedalled by some that they are such hardcore skiers that
they need their bindings done up tight because of the consequences of a pre release in some sketchy couloir.
In the season it is not uncommon for us to see 5 ACL ruptures in a day.
In comparison it is very very rare to hear of someone injured because their ski released too easily.
I want my binding to release when i make a big enough error.
I use an AFNOR setting for mine and OH.
If anyone wants a copy pm me.
Jonathan Bell
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
rguably less needed in racing, as if you pre-release you'll likely just slide along a smooth track without any dangerous obstacles into safety netting?
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Yeah but isnt the point that you might lose a race because of prerelease? I think it is about taking risks to win rather than swapping one safety risk for another.
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| Jonathan Bell wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
On another thread there was talk of Tech bindings when locked being equivalent to DINs of 14-25. As most binding setting charts only go up to 12 or so I am wondering why marker for instance sells bindings with DIN up to 24.
Do people ski with DIN's over 12? I know some racers used to set DIN's to their weight in Stone to avoid pre release but at what point do you get into guaranteed leg injury? How strong is the knee joint and bones and what DIN will cause injury? |
I appreciate that Wc ski racers will crank bindings but as rupture an ACL is extremely common that approach speaks for itself.
There isn't a total safe setting for a binding. I believe they were developed to reduce tibial fractures to which end they are successful.
However i do believe that bindings can be set too high.
I don't subscribe to the nonsense pedalled by some that they are such hardcore skiers that
they need their bindings done up tight because of the consequences of a pre release in some sketchy couloir.
In the season it is not uncommon for us to see 5 ACL ruptures in a day.
In comparison it is very very rare to hear of someone injured because their ski released too easily.
I want my binding to release when i make a big enough error.
I use an AFNOR setting for mine and OH.
If anyone wants a copy pm me.
Jonathan Bell |
So very very true.
When going through rehab, ACL reconstruction and rehab again I found that in the region in which I live 19/20 ACL's in winter are overly high binding settings/tech toes locked.
Here in Cham the macho factor is out of control. and yes when they crash it almost always goes very wrong.
Yes if you are skiing real no fall terrain - Mallory/Eugester on the North Face of the Midi them yes lock your toes or crank your din 2 places - but in reality in these places you make one turn form standstill/almost standstill then stop and consider the next turn. Anywhere else ragdolling with your skis still on is almost always way worse than your skis coming off. And yes you can stop very quickly in skiboots on a steep slope IF you stop spinning/tumbling, which is way easier than if your skis were still attached and your knee broken.
Many times I've been skiing with friends who are more powerful faster skiers than me, but not necessarily smooth/technical skiers and they will loose a ski while we are skiing the exact same line, But I'm running DIN 7/8 and they are running 16 (or whatever their race/duke maxes out at). If they ran their bindings at a sensible number and skied with a little more finesse they wouldn't need to spend so much time in the gym.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Idris, @Jonathan Bell, wise words...
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@Jonathan Bell, following the AFNOR setting, when you hit 50 are you supposed to go up 1 line after applying style and ability? Eg I'm using around +2 lines at the moment, so the guide would suggest winding back to +1 line. Or is it -1 from the base setting, which would seem rather low now.
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| Jonathan Bell wrote: |
I don't subscribe to the nonsense pedalled by some that they are such hardcore skiers that
they need their bindings done up tight because of the consequences of a pre release in some sketchy couloir.
In the season it is not uncommon for us to see 5 ACL ruptures in a day.
In comparison it is very very rare to hear of someone injured because their ski released too easily.
I want my binding to release when i make a big enough error. |
Well... Without a shadow of a doubt there are people and places who do need high DINs.
For sure, there are way more people with needlessly high DINs not skiing such terrain, which is probably your point, but it's not universally nonsense.
I know of a couple of situations where skis have pre-released landing a drop (harder snow), sending the skier into rocks and really  them up. Sure, not the smoothest landings (and certainly not many people skiing like that in those conditions), but they wouldn't have crashed if a ski didn't come off.
I don't know if anything was actually established, but there was speculation at the time that Markus Kastengren's fall/death was caused by binding failure.
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@Jonathan Bell, @Idris, Despite some massive wipe outs I have never (Touch wood) had a knee injury from skiing.One from slipping in a car park walking to a bus  Pre release is not really an option for me in certain terrain scenarios in my resort, My bindings are set based on a lot of talk with very experienced techs and manafactuers. One tech thinks there to low!
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f they ran their bindings at a sensible number and skied with a little more finesse they wouldn't need to spend so much time in the gym
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Yeah every national race and freestyle programme that has a massive focus on strength and conditioning is doing it wrong, some of those programmes include, Switzerland, USA, Austria,Norway but I am sure the correlation between their success and conditioning is accidental. Finesse and strength are not mutually exclusive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am 6"2 and 88kg.
Moderately aggressive steeps / all terrain skiing.
Ski on DIN 8 - I don't get pre-releases.....
IMHO most pre-releases are due to badly adjusted bindings or user error.
i,e
1) Ice under dynafit toe / Incorrect dynafit heel spacing
2) Badly adjusted toe height on Marker Dukes or Alpine bindings
3) Incorrect boot sole length adjustment
4) Worn boot soles or inserts
<etc>
Cranking up the DIN will "mask" some of these issues - but at what cost ?
There are times / occasions for higher DINs - but they are not daily occurrences.
As mentioned above anyone skiing on DIN 12+ is exposing themselves to much higher risk of serious injury if you have a big crash...... though you might get away with it for a few years until the tomahawk comes.
As an aside : I bet most world cup racers / freeriders who crank up the DINs for competition run will turn them down for daily skiing ?
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@Haggis_Trap, agree with all that - also DIN 8, also no pre-releases.
But I have been able to get locked Dynafit toes (no ice, properly engaged) to release whilst skinning in fairly uncomfortable circumstances more than once. Technique was to blame, but the ease they released didn't inspire much confidence skiing steep hard snow - wouldn't need that big an impact against the side of the ski/boot to pop it out.
However in situations like that I ski slowly and don't fall, so knee injury isn't really a consideration.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
As an aside : I bet most world cup racers / freeriders who crank up the DINs for competition run will turn them down for daily skiing ?
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Bode Miller skis 18 for DH, so a few lower again for the tech events. Lindsey Vonn, 14 for DH. So yeah, you'd wonder what they freeski on.
I've always suspected it's a good thing DINs aren't visibly apparent unless you get up close to the binding because you'd definitely get a lot more people skiing unsuitably high numbers....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Haggis_Trap, The tech guys at Salomon disagree with you, they have set mine up and normally go over 12, there is a reason the sth 16 is a big seller, with free ride and freestyle guys, but I guess the designers and experts are wrong and internet info is correct. @moseyp, I have seen his skis and Dider Cuche, in the flesh and both had them set above 20, for DH training.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| .....But I have been able to get locked Dynafit toes (no ice, properly engaged) to release whilst skinning in fairly uncomfortable circumstances more than once. Technique was to blame, but the ease they released didn't inspire much confidence skiing steep hard snow - wouldn't need that big an impact against the side of the ski/boot to pop it out..... |
Things to consider:
- there's no industry standard spec for the tech inserts in boots.
- Dynafit only guarantees perfect boot-binding function with Dynafit certified inserts.
- the only other boot manufacturers that Dynafit supply their own inserts to are Scarpa & Fischer.
- whilst not manufactured by Dynafit the specification of inserts used by Scott & Hagan in their boots are Dynafit certified but they don't have Dynafits patented lead-in groove.
- there's a big difference in the specs/performance (ie torsion stiffness etc) of the current range of Dynafit toe bindings (ie from the Radical and later) compared to the older model TLT Speeds/Verticals/Comforts etc.
- tech inserts in boots do wear & whilst the bindings pins are harder they can wear too.
So a secondhand (ie unknown mileage/wear) old design binding mated with a non OEM boot may not give the snuggest interface.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Fattes13, how have you seen Bode Miller's bindings?!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Fattes13, whilst you haven't stated your full stats 12 din is very high for a teaching set-up. Assuming that you're teaching Type I or Type II skiers then you yourself become a Type I/II skier so if you were blindsided whilst stationary then the chances of a release are greatly reduced if your bindings are set to you usual 'freesking' Type 3/3+ setting or greater.
I know of a number of instructors who've been injured this way. The same applies to guys who hoone around for a couple of hours in the morning on their 'usual' setting then collect their young sprog from ski school & then spend the rest of the morning skiing greens'n'blues. It doesn't sound much going down a couple of din but if you look at the differences in the actual Nm of force to release the bindings then differences are considerable.
Might be different if you're teaching competition bumps skiing or freestyle etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@spyderjon, good points. I think talking about din settings on alpine bindings and release settings on tech bindings are completely different topics, although tech bindings do seem to be getting better
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I am 6"2 and 88kg.
Moderately aggressive steeps / all terrain skiing.
Ski on DIN 8 - I don't get pre-releases..... |
I'm 6ft, 110kg and ski between a 6 and 7. Admittedly I'm not a great skier so it's mostly piste, have been venturing off piste and doing jumps though. The only time I've had a ski come off is when I've wanted it to. Unless I start getting skis popping off then I don't see the need to increase them beyond that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
| @spyderjon, good points. I think talking about din settings on alpine bindings and release settings on tech bindings are completely different topics, although tech bindings do seem to be getting better |
Agreed re the older model true outright tech touring bindings but the latest freeride touring Beast, Rad 2 & Kingpin tech bindings are TUV din certified so no different at all re the din/torques required to release etc. In fact the functionality/elasticity in the Beast equals the best alpine bindings & beats all the others. I've got plenty of Beast customers who are skiing them a din or two lower than their old Dukes/Barons/Guardians etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I am 6"2 and 88kg.
Moderately aggressive steeps / all terrain skiing.
Ski on DIN 8 - I don't get pre-releases..... |
I'm 6ft, 110kg and ski between a 6 and 7. Admittedly I'm not a great skier so it's mostly piste, have been venturing off piste and doing jumps though. The only time I've had a ski come off is when I've wanted it to. Unless I start getting skis popping off then I don't see the need to increase them beyond that. |
Note that comparisons between din settings, even when ht/wt/skier type is stated, is meaningless without the boot sole length which can make a big difference. Age correction is also important but as a binding tech I'm more concerned with that in women than men (greater chance of osteoporosis in women than men) but that is not yet allow for in the din charts - although I expect to see it in the next few years.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm 5'11", 77kg. I broke my ankle skiing on Dynafit TLTs set on 8, when I caught a tip in a turn, and the binding didn't release. The loud cracking noise, the pain, the stretcher off the Argentiere glacier, and the long rehab were not fun. I now ski on 6-7, and have had no preleases
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Re : Tech Bindings vs Alpine.
Alpine bindings release from the toe.
In general this can protect against leg breaks.
... but can lead to more ACL type injuries.
Tech binding release at the rotating heel.
In general this can protect against ACL injury.
... but can leads to more broken legs.
Something I thought interesting : more below from Wildsnow.
https://www.wildsnow.com/15123/tech-binding-release-testing-acl-broken-leg/
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6ft, 88kg. My bindings are always set to 6-7. I ski fast under most conditions and have never had a binding release without cause. Unless you are doing downhill racing I just can't see the point of winding them up further.
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@spyderjon,Spot on I would say most of what I teach is Parallel and beyond, If I am on the bunny slopes I will wind them down, normally around mid term for a week or so. @moseyp, Yep, have seen a few of the top guys up close and personal while summer training! Shared a hotel with the Swiss team, one season, had a servicing area next door to the US guys another year, and the Norwegians the year after that.
Also I know nothing about pin bindings other than I dont trust them 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@spyderjon, I have two pairs of identical GS skis only difference is being binders, one set is rated up to 12 the other 15 with metal toe pieces and I had 4 "pre releases" on the lower din binders and never on the better bindings (both set the same DIN). I recon the higher rated binders have more elasticity and are just better designed.
I always assumed (but could be wrong) that as a spring you would want it's normal setting to be roughly in the middle. Is there anything to buying bindings so that they are set at the centre of their rating ? i.e. I ski on 10 so buy binders rated 5-15?
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@Haggis_Trap, nice link , thanks !
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