SCGB reps /guides - please don’t shout, but I have a question about em.

A snowHead

Please don’t shout back or turn it into a I love em / I don’t type thingy.

But

I am thinking that possibly / maybe / I may employ some ski guides next year, it's just an idea at the moment, as some people have asked about this when calling, so I thought I'd look into it.

I have chatted to our insurance Co and they are going to get back to me with some “stuff”.

Anyway, I have search (googled) around trying to find some “facts” regarding the problems the SCGB had / has with guides and can’t find out anything concrete.

Has anyone got a link to something that would shed some light on the real situation, so I can give it some more "looking at"

Cheers

PS. I have no thoughts either way about the SCGB wink

A snowHead

Wayne, why an SCGB rep as opposed to a local guide?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne,

I think they are now called 'leaders' not guides wink

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I would avoid employing them, and grab some local freelancers who you can subcontract to. They have their own insurance, they have responsibility for the guests who you make arrangements with, and if they're crap or you get no uptake then you've not hired additional staff for a job that isn't required.

There must be dozens of skiers and boarders in resort that would be desperate for that kind of work, even if it was only a few days a season to supplement other income from bar work or driving etc.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Wayne If by "real situation" you mean the particular incident in Verbier a few years ago, I doubt you'll find anything more than is on this forum. If you mean more general insurance status etc., and want some feedback on their experience, why don't you just give them a call and ask them directly? The reps' manager is listed on the Ski Club of GB website, so probably best trying to talk to him.

A few points that may be different from what you're thinking of though:
The leaders (they've been rebranded from "reps" this season BTW) are not employed, but are volunteers, who get their travel and hotel expenses paid while repping (sorry - can't cope with the rebranding myself), and evening meal paid for or expensed on a per diem rate. Actually I think the local accommodation is normally that provided by the local tourist office rather than by the SCGB itself (reps are always in resort at the invitation of the tourist office)
Leaders do a two week training course prior to going on the strength, followed up by a refresher every 5 years.

I'm not a rep myself - maybe one could say a bit more about what's in the training course

As you surely know there are often debates (either with the anti-SCGB brigade on here, or with other TOs and Guide companies) about how they are allowed to lead off-piste, and you may have a problem there. Something it'd probably be paritularly worth talking with them directly about. TO ski guides are probably more akin to what you'll be able to do though - and they are restricted to on-piste only everywhere I've come across them.

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I'd restrict it to on-piste anyway. Partly because 90% of the people who tell you they are powder heroes aren't, leaving you with 10% that are peed off, and due to the insurance issues. Plus if people want an off piste guide, they can pay for it with any of the recognised companies, and I'd suggest that they will be making arrangements with and looking for a guide by name or at the very least by company, instead of relying on the included guiding with accommodation.

Sounds like you are on the right track with a couple of retired/experienced skiiers, who can show people around the pistes and avoid the hourly nose in a piste map problem. None of the ski guides I have experienced with other TOs have provided anything different - they'd never take you off piste, and most don't know how anyway, still made them worth their weight in gold for a week.

After all it is free

Wayne, I think many people get very concerned about the precise use of the term "guide". Smile

AFAIK a guide will have an internationally recognised guide qualification (someone more knowledgeable than me can give the details of the guide qualifications), and will be legally allowed to be paid to guide other persons on or off-piste and will have the appropriate insurance.

The SCGB persons in a ski resort who ski with SCGB members used to be referred to as "reps", but as of this year are now officially "leaders" (interestingly to my mind "leading" is more synonomous with guiding than "repping" ever was, so I don't know why they have chosen to make the change. rolling eyes

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Wayne, FWIW I have experience of two 'reps' one was excellent, the other was how shall we say, not very good on so many levels!
So like everything else in life, theres good uns and bad uns!

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Any links anyone to unbiased stuff ?

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Wayne, here, anyway, is a link to the really long thread about the subject of ski hosts' liability, with particular reference to the Ski Club of GB:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=30844&start=80
Obviously there's quite a lot of waffle in it (this is snowHeads and it is a long thread!) but there's also some very informative stuff, such as the post by davidof to which I have directly linked. The thing about that post is that it underlines
1) that laws on negligence liability differ from country to country;
2) that the definition of 'off-piste' throws up particular problems;
3) that your own insurance is the most important starting point (and the Club's insurance is what has governed various actions taken by them over recent years).
Hope this helps and is vaguely what you're looking for.

You know it makes sense.

First up I would avoid use of the word ''guide'' like the plague.
A guide is someone with UIAGM status.

Ski rep / host is a much more appropriate phrase.

I am guessing that your doing this commercially ? So it will be a totally different set up and rules from SCGB (which legally is a club - all be it one with several full time office staff and a profesional marketing group).

On piste you should be fine.
Off piste would be a very grey area for insurance and liability. So it would be worth making sure that your ski hosts are suitably qualified (at a guess maestro should be more than enough for non glaciated terrain).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Haggis Trap +1

I think you need to qualify if you are thinking about ski reps - i.e employing someone to show your guests around the resort or guides - UIAGM status to go anywhere on the moutains.

If the UIAGM guide then surely just make sure you have a friendly contact with the local guiding company (or even a few guides) and you can recommend them to your guests.
If the ski reps

A snowHead

Wayne, not sure if this helps but. We go to Pila, Italy and us a Scottish woman to organise everything. She used to be a rep with Interski and lives there in the winter so knows the resort like the back of her hand.

She will "show people round" 1st day and often meets up to ski together too. No forms or legals just a nice intro to a new resort. Not sure where any one would stand but my mate did break his leg whilst following her !

Now it was a simple piste and a silly fall that just tweaked his tibia enough to break. We would never consider suing but I guess someone might and then where do you stand. In fact he was more upset that the ski did not release fast enough and whether it was set right.

If you can do it I would as it is very useful and much quicker to find your way around.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne, I agree with those that have suggested you use the name 'ski host' as they do in some North American resorts. This title seems to be ok with the Insurance there so if the Italians allow this kind of leading around the resort 'on piste' then that would keep it simple. As you have paying clients, unless the Instructors or Guides are qualified you are very likely to have problems with the authorities doing anything more than 'on piste' showing around. Trying to be cute and call your clients 'members' to get round the law will just leave yourself open to major problems if there was an accident. Best to ask the resort authorities what they would permit rather than try doing it on the quiet and getting caught. As for SCGB Reps 'Leaders', not worth considering them as they would not be able to do anything for legal reasons and are not qualified in any way. Good luck and hope this helps.

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snowcrazy, as he made very clear - he isn't considering SCGB reps/leaders is he?

Of course you wouldn't have any axe to grind there would you? Wink

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Whatever you call your hosts/guides or your clients/members is immaterial - it's the law (both in Italy and in the UK, in either or both of which countries you could potentially be sued by an injured client or his estate) and the insurance behind all this, which count.

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Wayne, A ski holiday company I've used many times offers 'ski guiding' as part of the package. One of the chalet staff leads skiers around the resort, sticking to the piste. It's dead good too, sociable skiing and certainly adds to the holiday.

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The two guys I have in mind, as I spoke to them about it this year were both born in the area and are “still” fully qualified – just don’t teach anymore other than at New Year and Dutch, Austrian and UK half Terms..One of them is a member of local society.
For those who don’t know: 99% of Italian ski schools are run by societies which are a bit like cooperatives who employ people during the season, then divvy up the profits at the end of the season. I think the ESF is a bit like that, but not sure. Anyway, as he is one of the bosses of the local (official) ski school there shouldn’t be any problems there.
One idea is to pay a % towards the rep/guide/host/mate (what-ever) and the rest would be paid by with a couple of hotels that I know the owners of.

As I said just a thought at the mo.

Oh and it would be only on piste, sort of this is a good cafe, this is a good run, etc. We have a number of guides (UIAGM) in the school so they do all the way off piste stuff anyway.

Will let you know

After all it is free

Wayne, It would be a winning addition to the packages you offer. I worked as a ski guide/host for both Crystal and Neilson. The service offered was hugely popular and very well received, especially when I was "guiding" around the Monterosa area which can be a little confusing. I didn't need signed disclaimers but I did have to make it very clear what piste grade we would be skiing on any particular day. I did 4 days hosting, catering for differing levels on each day.

It was very popular with guests whose other halves/kids were in ski school and who would otherwise be skiing alone. It created a great social atmosphere amongst the disparate group which would continue into the hotels.

The local ski school were fine with the arrangements although I was warned not to allow the group to snake behind me as it looked like I was giving a lesson!

I tried to keep everyone on the mountain happy by stopping at different places each day for drinks/lunch which obviously pleased the guests as well as the bar/restaurant owners.

The feedback at the end of each week was always very positive and I'm sure you'd find the same for the ski area of Folgarida/Campiglio.

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So, back to your OP, I think there's very little use in seeking further information on the SCGB repping arrangements, as what you're suggesting is different to their offering in almost every important aspect, viz:
1) Commercial vs club operation;
2) on-piste only rather than including limited off-piste;
3) using currently qualified full cert instructors vs internally trained staff (some of whom may coincidentally have low/mid-level instructor qualifications).

What you are suggesting is very similar to what Mark Warner offer (although using maestri exceeds their qualification level also). As you're using maestri, the obvious question is whether they'd be allowed to offer any level of instruction/tips as part of the deal. Ski hosts, even if qualified independently as instructors in their own right, have had to make it very clear at the beginning of the day that they were not entitled to provide any technical advice whatever (although those restrictions may have been related to the fact they were oeprating in France).

I've had several days with both ski hosts, similar to that described by jzBun. and SCGB reps and thoroughly enjoyed them - although for me in the ski host case primarily for the social aspect rather than any particular need for being shown around the resort's pistes. If you want any further info maybe find someone on the hosting side of MW's operation, or others like jzBun.

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Dwarf Vader is ski hosting for a TO in La Rosiere at the moment. He might have some useful input.

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Hi Wayne,

Good luck with your plan. I'd be interested to know how this goes with using local instructors for this as we get relatively regular requests too, which we turn down at the moment.

Both TOs and the ski club have relatively regular problems with the French authorities and with the established ski schools regarding ski hosting/guiding/social skiing etc here in France. But, those issues tend to revolve around the fact that unqualified (ie not ski instructor) individuals are doing things which closely resemble ski instructing or guiding for which you have to be a fully licensed, legal, insured ski school (very expensive!) with legal, licensed, fully qualified (or legally stagaire) staff (also very expensive!).

I guess that the french and italien laws are probably different (not that I know anything about Italien law so I might be wrong) . . . but if you think it's relevant drop me an e-mail and I can send you a list of the things that TOs here put into place to reduce their liability / liklihood of being sued etc. But, in general terms, this tends to involve doing what they can to keep their heads down and remain unobtrusive.

If you were operating in France with instructors then I would suggest that your instructors were self employed and billed you for their "lessons" at a pre-agreed rate. If instructors are fully qualified (in France at any rate) they can operate privately on a self-employed basis without a ski school and with insurance from their professional body. They can then bill you for "lessons" which you on-charge to guests at a rate of your choosinng with relatively low liability provided that it is clear that they are booking with an external supplier. That would significantly reduce the chance of upsetting any of the ski schools etc too as you are increasing their buisness rather than detracting from it. If the instructors are fully qualified and insured, and legal to teach off piste, there would be no legal difference between the on and off piste options.

But, not sure how helpful this is as the situation might be very different in Italy . . . . .

Good luck - and keep us updated with how you go.
Heather

To add to this, we got a really good guide on a recent trip through a TO, the reps had never skied the area before the start of the season, and on day one of the season in December had their first clients to guide. They still offered a lot of value, if nothing else because they are doing all the work on where to go and when - they asked around others who had done a lot of skiing there before the start of the day, and then just looked at the piste map on lifts etc. It meant we could relax and just follow them, knowing they would follow their maps/signs and get us on to the kind of piste that we wanted to ski.

They don't have to be massively experienced, as you can see above, but having someone that is would be a big addition - our reps had been guiding for about 6 weeks when we were shown around, and they got us doing a lot more than we would have otherwise and seemed to be going where they knew was going to be good, following a similar routine each week to be on the right piste at the right time.

The major advantage for us to guiding is on trips where we travel as a couple. No issue when there's 20 of us in a chalet, there's always an intermediate and advanced skier who knows the resort reasonably and can show us around, and after day 2/3 we've worked out the way to get home etc, but when we are just the two of us we go places we've not been before, and also don't know anyone else on the trip - guiding builds an instant group to go for lunch with, meet some new people, have a beer in the evening, without pressure to do so it naturally happens in a group with shared experiences on the piste.

Personally, the fact you are considering it and working out how to make it happen is enough that I am impressed by your operation without knowing anything about it. Hats off for that. If you could make it happen, we would be even more likely to come and ski with you next season.

You know it makes sense.

As I said, just looking the pros and cons at the moment.

Apart from the insurance question, there t is another major factor (for us) to keep in mind though. We have a, and I know it goes against what most TO’s do, rather strange way of dealing with our clients. It is the overriding idea of leaving people alone, unless they want you to sort something out, then sort it now. It works for us.

We really don’t hold welcome meeting – if we did there are enough SH’s who would tell you. We don’t the selling “stuff”. Don’t get me wrong there is a full programme that clients can either do, or not, up to them. Ice skating, quizzes, discos, karaoke, meals up the mountain, etc, etc. But if people don’t want to do anything, it’s fine by us. Even on the busy weeks when we have over 500 in resort there may be only 10% who join in the other activities.

The problem I have is that any form of herding people around goes against the grain.

We have set meeting times when the clients know where we’ll be (8am, 9am,11am,5pm,6pm and 9pm) so they can normally get hold of us if they need something. We are introducing a English and Italian speaking telephone service to answer question from next December. I honestly think that 99% of people just want us to supply the logistics and then leave em to have a holiday.

Does ski guiding fit well within this setup. Who knows.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

^ ^ ^ +1 I loathe and detest being herded, but I still like to ski in a group with a host occasionally.

A snowHead

Wayne, I have been on Holiday in the Dolomites for the last few years with a TO who provides ski hosts/guides for 5 days a week and it works very well. The only problems are when there are to many people in the group and ability range is to great. This problem is dealt with by forming ad hoc groups, this is not difficult as you can judge the ability of the persons in the group in the first few hours and as many people are now on their third and forth visit they know the way around and act as pathfinders. I have lead many ad hoc parties over the last few years and find it quite good fun. It always suprised me how quite a few people are more than happy to be lead around with no idea where they are or where they have been.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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riverman, I agree with you. I am the kind of guy who likes to plan a route (go to the highest point for lunch, get to the lift on the extreme of the piste map sort of thing) yet some of the people I ski with probably can't even read a piste map, preferring instead to say, OK, let's go and just follow (albeit sometimes they say "b****r off, I'm not going down that!" Toofy Grin

).

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

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ed123, correct - "Guide" does not necessarily mean UIAGM, depending on the country. As you say, the US has its own system, but I understand UIAGM/IFMGA is becoming more prevalent there. Also Austria has its own Schifuehrer system - are qualified to guide off-piste within Austria, but that doesn't necessarily include a climbing qualification. Having has less than satisfactory dealings in the past with non-UIAGM guides, I'll stick to UIAGM in the future (or on occasion ISTDs if I know there's no glaciated terrain that would be interesting to hit).

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SCGB reps /guides - please don’t shout, but I have a question about em.

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