 Poster: A snowHead
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I post this here because it would not get a fair hearing over on the club forum. This is something I am concerned about and think is widespread and totally wrong in a members club. Here is an enlightening extract from the minutes of the SCGB AGM:-
"Caroline asked the meeting if there were any questions.
Mike Padgett asked about the dismissal of a Ski Club Leader with 24 hours notice. He continued
by stating that it had been alleged that two people had made a formal complaint by email. He
asked if they had skied with the Leader in question or had it been hearsay.
Caroline Stuart-Taylor responded that she did not know. Neil Britten said that without actually
knowing who the allegations were made about or by, he could not answer.
Mr Padgett then stated that the dismissed Leader had told the Club that backhanders were being
taken by Leaders employing guides, and demanded to know if this was true. Caroline Stuart-Taylor
responded that this was true in one resort , and that this had been stopped. She remarked that the
mountain guide concerned had stated to her that he could give his money to whom he liked, to
which she had replied: ‘not to Ski Club Leaders’.
Neil Britten informed the meeting that he had copious amounts of correspondence with the person
Mr. Padgett was referring to, but this allegation did not bear any resemblance to the issue. This
was in none of the correspondence received. Obviously it had been something more recently
discovered by the individual concerned.
Mr Padgett continued that many Club members had written emails to support the Leader, and that
Caroline Stuart-Taylor had said she was not interested in a fan club. He asked why the leader had
been dismissed, and stated that he understood that procedures had not been followed.
Mr Britten responded by stating that the procedures had been followed assiduously. The
procedures included a grievance procedure. The purpose of the procedure was to be assured that
anybody who operated as a leader for the Ski Club was going to be fully operating within our 6
policies. When the Club received evidence from more than one source that indicated that this was
not the case, then the Club had a duty in law to investigate. The Club had followed its procedures
and it was as a result that the Club had concluded it was not in the Club’s interest to have this
individual as a representative of the Club.
Mr Padgett questioned again why he had been dismissed.
Mr Britten said that the individual had threatened legal action against the Club and any comments
could be used in Court, therefore there was nothing more that he could add. "
It appears certain reps (you will never catch me calling them leaders) are coining in off the back of members and the person who blew the whistle on this is getting the blame. This would be typical in an old fashioned toffs club. Thanks for listening. I just wanted to get this in the open air in the hope it will spark some useful debate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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reprevolt, am I wrong in thinking that the dismissed rep is you?
Personally I am not that bothered about SCGB politics any more, though I suppose some maybe. If you don't like a club that you see as an 'old fashioned toffs' club' I don't see why you remain a member. The SCGB niggled me with its policy towards the age of members and what holidays they could go on - so I chose to leave. If you don't like what they do, I suggest you do the same. FWIW, I think this looks unpleasant - but I also think that if the individual concerned has threatened legal action, I can understand Neil Britten's reluctance to say more at the meeting.
| Quote: |
| Mr Padgett then stated that the dismissed Leader had told the Club that backhanders were being taken by Leaders employing guides, and demanded to know if this was true. Caroline Stuart-Taylor responded that this was true in one resort , and that this had been stopped. |
In view of CST's comment, it seems to me that you should change the title of the thread to Ski Club of GB Leaders took (rather than take) backhanders.
BTW, I find it quite hard to read so much text all in bold font.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| reprevolt wrote: |
I post this here because it would not get a fair hearing over on the club forum. This is something I am concerned about and think is widespread and totally wrong in a members club. Here is an enlightening extract from the minutes of the SCGB AGM:-
"Caroline asked the meeting if there were any questions.
Mike Padgett asked about the dismissal of a Ski Club Leader with 24 hours notice. He continued
by stating that it had been alleged that two people had made a formal complaint by email. He
asked if they had skied with the Leader in question or had it been hearsay.
Caroline Stuart-Taylor responded that she did not know. Neil Britten said that without actually
knowing who the allegations were made about or by, he could not answer.
Mr Padgett then stated that the dismissed Leader had told the Club that backhanders were being
taken by Leaders employing guides, and demanded to know if this was true. Caroline Stuart-Taylor
responded that this was true in one resort , and that this had been stopped. She remarked that the
mountain guide concerned had stated to her that he could give his money to whom he liked, to
which she had replied: ‘not to Ski Club Leaders’.
Neil Britten informed the meeting that he had copious amounts of correspondence with the person
Mr. Padgett was referring to, but this allegation did not bear any resemblance to the issue. This
was in none of the correspondence received. Obviously it had been something more recently
discovered by the individual concerned.
Mr Padgett continued that many Club members had written emails to support the Leader, and that
Caroline Stuart-Taylor had said she was not interested in a fan club. He asked why the leader had
been dismissed, and stated that he understood that procedures had not been followed.
Mr Britten responded by stating that the procedures had been followed assiduously. The
procedures included a grievance procedure. The purpose of the procedure was to be assured that
anybody who operated as a leader for the Ski Club was going to be fully operating within our 6
policies. When the Club received evidence from more than one source that indicated that this was
not the case, then the Club had a duty in law to investigate. The Club had followed its procedures
and it was as a result that the Club had concluded it was not in the Club’s interest to have this
individual as a representative of the Club.
Mr Padgett questioned again why he had been dismissed.
Mr Britten said that the individual had threatened legal action against the Club and any comments
could be used in Court, therefore there was nothing more that he could add. "
It appears certain reps (you will never catch me calling them leaders) are coining in off the back of members and the person who blew the whistle on this is getting the blame. This would be typical in an old fashioned toffs club. Thanks for listening. I just wanted to get this in the open air in the hope it will spark some useful debate. |
That's better.
Never had anything to do with them. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In years gone by, a crack Terms and Conditions pedant was black balled by a group of old toffs for a crime he didn't commit. This man promptly escaped from a maximum security clubhouse to the West London underground. Today, still wanted by the cabal, he survives as a soldier of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The Goldsmith.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"It appears certain reps (you will never catch me calling them leaders) are coining in off the back of members and the person who blew the whistle on this is getting the blame. This would be typical in an old fashioned toffs club. Thanks for listening. I just wanted to get this in the open air in the hope it will spark some useful debate.''
Storm in a tea cup.
You pay a considerable amount of money to go on a reps course. If you pass, you can stay in a resort free of charge - but you have to ski with fellow club members most days of the week.
It hardly seems like a path to riches. Maybe I am missing something and it is like being a club doormen where your actual pay seems poor but you make a small fortune from controlling the drugs supplied within the club.
What sort of drugs are typical in an old fashioned toff's club?
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| Latchico wrote: |
What sort of drugs are typical in an old fashioned toff's club? |
Gin & Tonic? 
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Fixed that for you
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Plymouth gin or London gin?
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Latchico, Plymouth, obviously 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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How many times will Tim Brown re-register one wonder's.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Very hard to follow those minutes I suspect because the nature of the "cause" for dismissal is not stated. I might have a guess that
whistleblower has been dismissed and tried to implicate others or
there was some other cause and whistleblowing was a retribution or
he was entirely innocent, whistleblew and was then an inconvenience to the shadowy organisation (Pictures Caroline Stuart-Taylor stroking white cat in front of big screen of world and control console).
Regardless the suggestion that reps might take the odd incentive from local guides who they keep in employment is hardly beyond the realms of possibility.
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dirty protest round the clubhouse
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You know it makes sense.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| How many times will Tim Brown re-register one wonders. |
Fixed that for ya.
Isn't he a rep though? Are you saying he's the one dismissed or the one taking the errr "thank you" from the guide. One loves a scandal but I'm not sure this one is meaty enough. Hardly Ryan Giggs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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boredsurfin, well, the oh-so-attractive Tim Brown is still on the list of Ski Club leaders on their website, not that that's conclusive evidence of any sort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wait, are you saying that Tim Brown took a back hander from Ryan Giggs?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Does anyone give a flying  ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nadenoodlee, I doubt any snowHeads do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nadenoodlee, Quite a couple of years ago and this thread wouold be a 10 pager by now or deleted
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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boredsurfin, yep and I would have worn orange - alot has changed..
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| boredsurfin, yep and I would have worn orange - alot has changed.. |
Obama got in and released you from Guantanamo?
Can't see you in Orange.
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| Quote: |
| Can't see you in Orange. |
clashes with her fake tan?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This issue was aired at the AGM last November. Why resurrect it now, over seven months later?
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admin, I'm not a fan, I had a bit of a peach phase a while ago but the world keeps on turning....
Guvnor, too poor for fake tans now.... stupid saving regime
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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reprevolt, is the rep involved someone who has also posted here a fair amount under a different name and has been unwilling to disclose why he stopped repping?
Since you seem to know something about this - can you clarify whether the suspension of the rep referred to by you was actually anything at all to do with the whistleblowing or something rather different...
Given that in your OP you make it clear that this was an issue at the AGM ages ago - why raise it now?
And if the rep involved was threatening legal action if his name was disclosed... what do you expect this thread to achieve?
And do you have any evidence at all for your assertion that this is widespread practice?
of course one could argue that actually it is letting non-rich people rep that might lead reps to need to accept backhanders... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Everyone else in resort calls it 'commission' - standard practice and nothing particularly shady about it. Can't see what the Saga Ski Club is getting its knickers in a twist about - run out of things to harrumph about over G&Ts, presumably.
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I've been on a few Ski Club Freshtracks holidays, and have found that the Ski Club get "free" accommodation/meals for their leaders, their guides get "free" lunches for taking parties of ski clubbers to mountain restaurants, and their hotels get a bung for sending people to overpriced ski hire shops. I also suspect that the reps get free/cheap drinks for bringing members to the bars where they hold their evening meet-ups. None of this is publicised beforehand. So, if the reps get a kickback for recommending a guide it's hardly grounds for dismissal - just as long as they don't milk it too much. After all they are giving up their time for free (excepting accommodation/lift passes).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Benzknees wrote: |
| I've been on a few Ski Club Freshtracks holidays, and have found that the Ski Club get "free" accommodation/meals for their leaders, their guides get "free" lunches for taking parties of ski clubbers to mountain restaurants, and their hotels get a bung for sending people to overpriced ski hire shops. I also suspect that the reps get free/cheap drinks for bringing members to the bars where they hold their evening meet-ups. None of this is publicised beforehand. |
You sound a little as if you were surprised about this happening - what's the difference to a coach driver getting a free lunch when he stops off at the pub in the yorkshire moors with a bus load of paying punters...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| You sound a little as if you were surprised about this happening - what's the difference to a coach driver getting a free lunch when he stops off at the pub in the yorkshire moors with a bus load of paying punters... |
The difference is Yorkshire folk are a lot tighter with their money.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 26-06-11 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Benzknees wrote: |
| I've been on a few Ski Club Freshtracks holidays, and have found that the Ski Club get "free" accommodation/meals for their leaders, their guides get "free" lunches for taking parties of ski clubbers to mountain restaurants, and their hotels get a bung for sending people to overpriced ski hire shops. I also suspect that the reps get free/cheap drinks for bringing members to the bars where they hold their evening meet-ups. None of this is publicised beforehand. So, if the reps get a kickback for recommending a guide it's hardly grounds for dismissal - just as long as they don't milk it too much. After all they are giving up their time for free (excepting accommodation/lift passes). |
I have been on two Freshtracks each year for the last ten years and I totally disagree with you. I was also a ski club rep some years ago.
Firstly you seem to be confused between Freshtracks party leaders and resort leaders, or reps as we used to be known. Party leaders pay a reduced price for their holiday, although how much I do not know. Any accommodation and meal arrangement is negotiated by the club beforehand and the club decides how to handle that. The leader has no involvement.
Most of my trips usually involve two or more local mountain guides. The guides are organised by the club well before the holiday. The party leader will ski with a different group every day. The guide will recommend the restaurant for lunch, but that is secondary to finding the best snow conditions. Sometimes the guide will get a free meal but I have never seen the party leader receive a free meal. In situations where the guide’s meal is not free, the members frequently will pay for the guide and the members will expect the leader to chip in for the guide’s meal as well.
The ski club has discount arrangement with ski shops in a number of resorts. In my experience the prices have always been competitive with other shops in the resort. Members are not obliged or pressured to go to the recommended shop and I have known occasions where some members have gone elsewhere either, because of perceived better quality of service or a better range of equipment, but not because of price.
As far as resort leaders are concerned, in most resorts the club has been using the same bar for years. I was a leader in La Plagne almost twenty years ago and the same bar is still being used for the leader’s office hour. Most current resort leaders will have had no involvement in establishing the relationship. In the three resorts where I lead, I received the worker’s price for drinks, which is not quite as generous as some might think.
On the subject of kickbacks for guides, it is still as far as I know, against ski club policy. Whether it happens with tour operators is another matter. If it is against ski club policy and a leader transgresses, then in my view it is a disciplinary issue.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richjp, So, when you say you totally disagree: you agree that leaders get reduced (or as I've been told by a leader "free", in Mark Warner hotels) price holidays; you agree that guides receive free meals (my groups have always offered to pay for their meal, but in most cases have been told it is already covered); you agree members are encouraged via the ski club or hotel to use certain shops (even the "discounted" ones are more expensive - check out le Vallon Blanc in Tignes as against local SkiSet shops with "40% discount"; 67.5 vs 90 euros); you agree reps may receive discounts on drinks.
It strikes me that there's an awful lot of hypocrisy going on in the world. It's okay for insurance companies to offer commissions to brokers, okay for Solicitors and Valuers to do the same to Estate Agents who recommend them, okay for bigwigs in firms to wine & dine their clients to effectively buy work, but shock, horror, not for the little man to take a little beer money by putting business the way of a friend who still charges the client the same amount.
This is the same with the ski club. You can't tell me that they aren't benefiting financially from placing holidays with the same hotel owners, and promoting ski hire/airport car parking/etc. arrangements with the same firms each year. Of course everyone knows that's the way of the world (how naive do you think I am Bertie Bassett?). The point is that it's unfair to take the leader/rep to task for doing the same on a small scale. No reasonable ski club member is going to be bothered about a few minor rules being breached, as long as it doesn't have any significant impact on the cost of their holiday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Not really wanting to debate the Ski Club issue but whenever I go on holidays that a ski host, the ski host invariably gets a free lunch, how is this any different to a guide getting a lunch, I consider it a normal part of the tourist industry.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There is a cross-cultural issue here. I can only refer to my 2 seasons as a rep (TO not SCGB) and only in Italy but every bar/restaurant owner would give food/drink to me for free. It was just the way things worked. I guided/hosted 8-12 people 5 days a week, went into various mountain restaurants and, without exception, the owner would discreetly inform me that my bill was taken care of. I didn't ask for it. It was automatic. Walk into a bar, dressed in a uniform with a group of Brits - free drinks. And it was considered insulting if I tried to pay.
I was even given an envelope by one bar owner. It had 200,000 lira in it (£100.00). Did I take it? What would you do?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe the issue here is the grey line between bribe/incentive and tip/thank you - they are all backhanders but from different motivations. I think it's perfectly acceptable to be on the receiving end of free drinks and food if you have brought custom to a place. Entirely different matter if you cajouled someone into going on an off piste day with a guide because you were already knowingly going to get a cut - that might lead to someone going on the day who isn't really up to it. I can see why the SCGB might be concerned about that but I can't see why they'd fire the whistleblower and not the rep(s) concerned. If I read that snip from the minutes correctly, that is what appears to have happened and, seven months on, someone still seems peed off about it.
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I was even given an envelope by one bar owner. It had 200,000 lira in it (£100.00). Did I take it? What would you do?
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I'd say it wasn't enough.
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stevew, And if the host's have done the job well, they usually get tipped to what probably amounts to the same as the salary they receive. I have been with Mark Warner a few times they have been excellent host's every time and usually receive around €150 a week from the group they have taken. Always received graciously, but it is expected.
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Hmmmm.... wonder if reprevolt will ever come back?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Maybe the issue here is the grey line between bribe/incentive and tip/thank you - they are all backhanders but from different motivations. I think it's perfectly acceptable to be on the receiving end of free drinks and food if you have brought custom to a place. Entirely different matter if you cajouled someone into going on an off piste day with a guide because you were already knowingly going to get a cut - that might lead to someone going on the day who isn't really up to it. I can see why the SCGB might be concerned about that but I can't see why they'd fire the whistleblower and not the rep(s) concerned. If I read that snip from the minutes correctly, that is what appears to have happened and, seven months on, someone still seems peed off about it. |
I agree with most of that. When I was interviewed to be a leader it was made clear for example that intentional scrounging of meals from members was out of order. It was stated that leaders had to have sufficient funds to pay their own expenses when needed. That was repeated to all on the training course. It was made clear that ski club leaders should not behave in the same way as some (not all) tour operator staff.
Like many leaders I was bought lunch by the members sometimes and on a number of occasions asked out for an evening meal by a group. Those offers were a sincere thank you and I would have looked po faced if I had declined them. I often declined offers of drinks in bars where I was getting the resort workers price, as I thought it unnecessary for people on holiday to pay top price when I could pay less. I would explain to the member why I had declined. I would have no problem revealing any of the above to ski club managment.
Taking a kickback from a guide is another matter. In some resorts the ski club's relationship with the resort is sometimes delicate. It's an old subject but some ski schools regard the ski club as competition. Any ski school finding out that the club leader had taken a kickback from another guide could easily damage the club's reputation in the resort and even its presence in the resort.
Part of the leader's role is to represent the club to the local tourist office officials, ski schools and tour operators. The leader is the face of the ski club in the resort. When doing the job you are on your own and expected to use your own judgement about what is and is not acceptable. I believe that most ski club leaders get it right. Some people on this thread could argue all day where the line is crossed, but that is individual opinion.
I was at the AGM last autumn and I thought it unclear whether the leader had been dismissed for whistle blowing per se. I gained the impression that he was dismissed for another reason and then decided to become a whistle blower, however I know no more than that. I do however suspect that stoat of the dead might be on the right track with his post here on Friday.
I said before that if a leader transgressed the club guidelines that was a disciplinary offence. I should add that I do not feel it should automatically result in the leader being removed and a warning might be appropriate depending on the circumstances. I suspect the right decision however was taken in this particular instance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jzBun wrote: |
There is a cross-cultural issue here. I can only refer to my 2 seasons as a rep (TO not SCGB) and only in Italy but every bar/restaurant owner would give food/drink to me for free. It was just the way things worked. I guided/hosted 8-12 people 5 days a week, went into various mountain restaurants and, without exception, the owner would discreetly inform me that my bill was taken care of. I didn't ask for it. It was automatic. Walk into a bar, dressed in a uniform with a group of Brits - free drinks. And it was considered insulting if I tried to pay.
I was even given an envelope by one bar owner. It had 200,000 lira in it (£100.00). Did I take it? What would you do? |
Having just completed a repping season in France I can assure you the same still happens (apart from the brown envelope, I didn't get that lucky)! I found that all mountain restaurants and all bars did it, so it can hardly be described as bribery, just a perk of the job.
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A bit like the Sunshine piste controllers who got fired--the reason varies according to whom you speak. And none of us seem to know much about the facts here. As an SCGB punter I always offer to pay the Leader's lunch. If, in the alternative, he says it is free on the house, I accept that as normal and nothing sinister and pleased it saves my pocket the grand sum of 4 euros (assuming all the other butters chip in). Even Mountain Guides don't always get a free lunch and I think they are pleased when their party pay for their lunch as it saves them having the embarrassment of trying to scrounge a freebie all the time. I like richip's post. Seems to represent the commonsense and honest practical view.
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