Seems pretty straightforward, but it appears the sealant dries out over time? Does it then need replacing and cleaning out all the old stuff?
Cheers,
Greg
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Only the faff of setting them up in the first place. Top it up every so often.
Up side is that the tyres are much lighter than and a lot of tyres are designed to be used like this, thinking about Bontragers.....
Major down side is when you do get a flat. Just keep a tube in your pack...................................
Or use light tyres and tube in the first place. Kenda lightweight tubes and Smallblock8 have been good to me....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Whats the view on tubeless in general? I ask cos a friend of mine nearly went over a cliff when his tubeless tyre came off the rim Ok, he is a completely mental rider, but even so it got me wondering whether these things are inherently less safe than normal tyres. As far as I understand the big advantage is that you can ride them at lower pressure than normal tyres, so they give better grip. Is that right? If so how big is the difference?
I went tubeless with a kit at the end of last year.
the main advantage i saw was less threat of snakebite punctures (hence the ability to ride at lower pressures), less threat of thorns (major issue in peaks and dales) and the lighter weight.
I've only shaved about 5psi off my old pressures at the moment as all the trails are bone dry, but it was a pita to set up.
make sure you know someone with an old school compresser to get the tyres onto the rims. The ones with a trigger. Most garages have replaced these with self activating nozzels, which are great for pushing the valve into the wheel and unseating the wheel rubber you spent 30 mins getting into place.
Glad i've done it now tho.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I am a bit of a gadget freak so I love tubeless to allow me to run lower pressures without worrying of pinch flats, and also extra resistance to punctures from thorns etc. See http://youtube.com/v/C_BsT8D9JYY for the marketing.
One thing to note with tubeless is that it all depends on the quality of the seal you get. In general proper tubeless rims with tubeless tyres are going to be the best. And the conversion kit with standard tyres will be on the worse end. Ultimately each different rim and tyre combination will have varying success.
I used the Stans conversion kit to convert my xc rims to tubeless and it worked well.
Something to think about is your tyre choice. For the above conversion I used Bontrager Tubeless Ready tyres, which are designed to not be completely UST but will seal up when used with sealant. Stans and Joes are supposed to be able to help standard tyres to seal. I actually currently use standard (non UST) Dual Ply Minions on XM819 Rims and they sealed up fine. However the dual ply is definitely going to be on the thicker side when compared to x country tyres. My understanding is that there may be some tyres out there that have trouble sealing at all, or may just require loads of sealant to make them air tight.
Some other things to note from my experience:
- It can be an extremely frustrating experience to get the seal. Your link talks about using a track pump, but I have only ever had this work when I had tubless rims and tubeless tyres. Instead I have had to resort to using a CO2 cartridge pump to get the seal, which you aren't supposed to do apparently (prehaps the CO2 is more likely to react with the sealant?). But then I repeatedly let the air out (without loosing enough to loose the seal) and pumped back in real air using my track pump. This was the best compromise in technique that I found.
- The Stans sealant (at least when I used it) has ammonia in it and a warning to avoid skin contact. This is kind of crap because getting the tyres to seal is a messy job
- So I tried Effetto Caffelatex, but this just didn't seal punctures like Stans and Joes. I got a really small thorn puncture and the sealant just refused to seal and just kept on shooting out of this tiny hole
- So currently I am using Joes. It works well and I am not sure if it actually has any bad chemicals in it, but the bottle didn't have any warnings on it, so that makes me happier. http://www.no-flats.com/
- The sealant is supposed to dry out over time, but its just a case of topping it up as far as I am aware. No need to clean the old stuff out. I certainly wouldn't bother. As far as I am aware the only negative to having too much sealant is the weight penalty. Also once you get the seal you won't wan't to be messing around with it anyway. Note double check your tyre direction before seating the tyre. I was absolutely gutted when I finally got it done and then noticed my tyre wasn't facing the right way! Cue doing the whole process again.
As Steilhang mentions UST rims are designed to work and seat correctly with UST tyres. From what I have read when you start bodging tubeless setups there is the risk that the rim isn't specifically designed for a tyre to seat onto it tubelessly, and the tyre isn't specifically designed to seat properly onto a tubeless rim. Therefore meaning that if you are railing a corner really hard with lots of force acting on the tyre, it is more likely to come off the rim, when it wouldn't if you were running with a tube.
When doing my current tubeless set-up I bought wire bead dual ply minions as in my mind it made sense that they will be stiffer and are less likely to roll off under force ( I just came up with this in my mind and have no proof this actually holds true ). Also I made the call that I don't have the skill to rail corners hard enough to put enough force on the wheels to force the tyre to roll off.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Instead I have had to resort to using a CO2 cartridge pump to get the seal, which you aren't supposed to do apparently (prehaps the CO2 is more likely to react with the sealant?)
Cold probably?
Can rig up a fizzy pop bottle with some valves and pipe. Pump the bottle to 80 PSI, then connect to wheel and release the lot in one go in to the tyre.
Does look a lot of faff tbh. People use the "it's lighter" argument, but I fail to see how a Stan's rim strip thingy (which is half a tube) plus a load of jizm, can be significantly lighter than a tube (they're not exactly heavy). Or as per the Oli Beckinsale? vid with heavier UST tyres on UST rims with a lidful - surely that's got to be heavier than a tube? Still need to carry a tube (or tow a compressor and carry a bottle of sealent for when you gash a tyre?
If I go tubeless, it'll be with tyres and rims designed for it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mosha Marc, yeh it's the thorns that has me thinking about it...what kit did you use?? any downsides (as Steilhang, has said I have heard if/when they go they do so in a big way!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kitenski, I just forked out for a Stans kit.
Other than a lot of fitting enduced swearing, I haven't noticed anything other other than an advantages in use.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
kitenski, I agree that thorns in the Dales/ Peak can be an issue but the weight thing isnt that big a deal is it, i'd rather carry a couple of £5 spare tubes about in my backpack than have a total blow out on a big craggy descent, or am I missing the point?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Markymark29, yeh I agree about blowouts, but when they cut the hedges around here the thorns are a right PITA...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I've been running tubeless tyres on XC bikes for at least 7 or 8 years now, and would hate to have to ride anything else. Always used UST rims, so never faffed with kits, but I do run a bit of sealant (usually Joe's). I normally run at 25-30psi, ride like a clumsy oaf, and don't get punctures. What's not to like? Not sure there's a lot of weight difference in a decent set-up, but that doesn't bother me much. If it did, I'd lay off the pies. It's a minor faff when you change tyres, I'll grant you, but worth it IMHO. Another minor drawback is that as rims get older and bashed about, its harder to get a good seal and top-ups are necessary more often. However, by the time this happens, they're normally only fit for the bin anyway.
I still don't ride tubeless on a DH bike, though. This is partly because of some experience of tyres rolling off rims, but that was in the early days. Wider rims and improved tyres seem to have solved the problem now, and I think I'm in the minority amongst friends. I only stick with tubes because twin wall Maxxis tyres seem quite happy to be run below 10psi anyway.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
It's not the weight saving (if any - unless you run without sealant, which is risky) that's the main benefit, it's the significant degree of additional grip you get. This is due to (a) the ability to run much lower pressures without pinch flats and (b) the tyre wall by itself is better at moulding to the ground without the stiffening effect of a tube. Ghetto tubeless is fine I guess but adds weight. I'd just get stans and be done with it: they're better than mavic/UST IMHO since they aren't as deep which means you get a better tyre profile and eases removal.
Tubeless setups do evacuate air very rapidly if the tyre wall tears though - much quicker than a snakebite.
In a weeks time I'll be able to ride the bloody thing rather than just look at/talk about/buy shiny things for it
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've been running UST tubeless tyres for many years and wouldn't go back to tubes. Dealing with punctures is also extremely easy with a tubeless repair kit - they plug the hole from the outside and so you don't even have to remove the tyre.
Best tyres on the market at the moment I think are Schwalbe Nobby Nics. These are available in both full UST and tubeless ready versions. The latter are a bit lighter but need sealant to prevent them from leaking. I can't be bothered with the mess of that so I use the full UST version on UST rims of course. I'm not totally convinced about the various conversion kits as there are so many tyre/rim combinations out there, but I'm sure some of them work great. But I prefer to stick with the UST standard for now as I know it works.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
uktrailmonster, I agree with you there; UST tyres are very hassle free. Some UST rims are better than others though. Mavic rims are particularly deep and getting stiff UST tyres on and off is a PITA. I use Stans Flows which have a shallower, wider profile which makes it much easier to get the bead off, amongst other things. My personal favourite UST tyres are 2.2 Conti Rubber Queens, although I'm on the verge of buying a WTB weirwolf/wolverine combo for the Summer. Physio on Thursday, riding on Thursday night, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday night...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Personally I don't agree (completely) with a whole lot of this tubeless thing (including some of it written in this thread).
First... weight. Tubeless setup is not lighter for sure. If you go with normal tires and with normal rims, you need rim tape or half of tube (even if you don't go ghetto tubeless, you still end up with half of tube in your wheel). Then you need sealant and all this weights more then light (maybe even latex) tube. If you go with UST rims and tires, you are way over weight of normal rim, normal tire and light tube. And even with UST it's good to have some sealant in it... at least I use it.
And second... much lower tire pressure. Most likely this might be true for some heavy DH tires. But personally I have "just" xc bike and with those lightweight tires (for last few years I'm using Schwalbe's Racing Ralph on back and Rocket Ron on front), there's no way you will be riding extremely low pressure. Tires with paper thin walls just can't be run with really low pressure. After I switched to tubeless, pressure in my tires didn't change at all, even though I tried to lower it. But as soon as I lowered it, it felt like tire is getting ripped off the rim.
Now my suggestion... of course UST (with sealant) is best way to go. After I finally got my new bike last autumn, I'm using Shimano XT UST wheels and Schwalbe's UST tires, and there's really nothing to complain... except that all of a sudden mounting and unmounting tires on wheel is pain in the a**. With normal tires it was easy and you didn't need any tools, UST tires are stiffer, even though they are same Evolution folding series. But then again it also might be rim.
Until I got new bike with UST wheels I was running ghetto tubeless. It's much better option to do this yourself, then buy conversion kit. Only difference between ghetto and real conversion kit is tube you get with it. Instead of producers putting 24" or smaller tube, they put 26" in kit. You need to put this tube really precisely into rim, and with such big tube it's long and hard work. When you do it yourself, you get BMX/kids mtb tube, you cut it to approximately 20mm wide strip and you just snap it on rim. Installation of such tube is done in 2mins, while it took me more then 2 hours to install original tube properly on wheel. After that I didn't play with some self made sealant but I just bought Joe's sealant and used normal tires (previously mentioned Racing Ralph and Rocket Ron).
And one more thing to consider... when using normal, non-UST tire, you need to check if they even work. In my case putting on Racing Ralph was really easy, but it took quite some time, to mount Rocket Ron and make it hold air Obviously bead of these two tires is a bit different, so one just snapped when used pressured air, other's (Rocket Ron) didn't want to stick to rim, so it took quite a bit of bugging
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sharkymark, Yes UST tyres can be a pain to fit, but if you ignore the manufacturer's ass covering advice about not using tools then I don't find it that difficult to be honest. I just fitted a new pair of 2.4" Schwalbe Nobby Nics to my Mavic UST rims in around 15 mins from start to finish. Plus I know that I won't have to remove them again until they're worn out as I'll fix any puncture from the outside in just a couple of mins. For that reason I don't bother with sealant anymore either.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ok I admit I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to this, so I would appreciate if you would take a bit of time and try to explain me what do you mean with "I'll fix any puncture from the outside". If you run over some nail/torn what do you do then to fix tire considering you don't have sealant? Even though I have sealant in tires, it still wouldn't hurt to know this
It's all you need to fix anything short of a massive tyre wall blow out. You basically use the needle to thread a thin strip of rubber through the puncture hole. Been using this method for years and it works every time. It's great in that the procedure takes about 2 mins (although it can take a while to locate the actual puncture sometimes) and you don't even have to take the wheel off.
It's a lot better than faffing about with tubes which can be a right pain when everything is covered in shite.
PS. for very small punctures a blob of superglue normally does the trick as a very quick fix
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
uktrailmonster, I started off not using sealant but eventually you get dozens of minute punctures from trail debris and I use sealant after that. I've managed to seal a 10mm gash with sealant alone - that's still a trashed tyre though. I'm thinking Mavic 723's so not exactly XC and harder to get tyres on and off in the first place.
primoz, if the tyre's rolling a lot when you lower the pressure then it's either too large a volume for the rim width or you're below the min pressure for the tyre. Schwable tyres are pretty light, even in UST guise, so they won't have an overly stiff sidewall. You don't need to run such low pressures but you do get more grip with a tubeless set up for any given tyre and pressure thanks to the increased conformity with the trail. Totally agree about the weight issue - no gains with a tubeless set up for general trail use.
uktrailmonster, thanks for this info. I never heard about this, but to be honest, I wasn't even looking much in this direction. I have spare tube with CO2 bomb under seat, and sealant in tires, so I never thought I need something else. But I agree, putting tube into tire full of sealant, somewhere in middle of nowhere, is not really most pleasant thing you can do. So your way of fixing sure sounds nicer
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
primoz, You're welcome. The Panaracer puncture kit really is very handy, you should try one. Works well at plugging any holes too big for sealant to deal with.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Sharkymark wrote:
uktrailmonsterI've managed to seal a 10mm gash with sealant alone
Blimey! What sealant are you using?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Stans. It took ages and occasionally leaked until it really settled. Binned the tyre in the end as it wouldn't handle anything much rougher than a road after that
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
right got Stans and got my front all sorted last night, stayed 'firm' all night (fnar fnar)
But I couldn't get the rear up at all (pun intended)
On the front I had to add some extra spoke tape, I did the same on the back but it was already wet from using the soap solution, so I think the tape slipped. Have let it dry overnight and will try again!
I actually got the rear inflated without the core and no sealant, as per the instructions, but once I got the sealant in I couldn't get the thing to inflate at all, gave up at 10:30pm dripping in sweat from using the track pump! Don't know anyone with a compressor unfortunately!
Cheers,
Greg
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 17-06-11 10:53; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
what a difference a day makes, rear on in 10mins after carefully applying the yellow spoke tape onto a dry rim this time
myth no.1 dispelled, rear 200g heavier with Stans! Not really a problem as my main aim is to stop hawthorn punctures...always seem to be getting a slow due to them and don't find out the night before I ride when I get my kit togther and start repairing tubes at 10:30pm!!
Cheers,
greg
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Ok, he is a completely mental rider, but even so it got me wondering whether these things are inherently less safe than normal tyres. As far as I understand the big advantage is that you can ride them at lower pressure than normal tyres, so they give better grip. Is that right? If so how big is the difference?
). Also I made the call that I don't have the skill to rail corners hard enough to put enough force on the wheels to force the tyre to roll off.
Obviously bead of these two tires is a bit different, so one just snapped when used pressured air, other's (Rocket Ron) didn't want to stick to rim, so it took quite a bit of bugging 