Energy?

A snowHead

I’ve put this in the “piste” section because it’s ultimately as important as anything in our sport.
I’m trying to be as energy independent as possible for this coming season and I’ve been researching all I can into the ‘systems’ available.

It’s difficult to get info on electrical consumption but I have limited personal empirical experience that an elderly chalet that sleeps 12 + 3 staff needs a 40 Amp master breaker (that still trips) to function.

One of the hardest experiences to understand is that many of the modern “energy efficient” motor/devices we buy, require huge amp spikes to start and yet are often used for a very short time, whereas older resistive motor equipment use a little more energy in running, but if used for the same time are more efficient. . . . so modern inductive motors, microwaves etc. will put a higher load into local systems that more traditional resistive equipment.

. . . I’m having a brainfart trying to equip an autonomous living system that relies on solar and wind power to be the foundation for life in the mountains. I know I’ll need a generator, I just don’t want it to be 10KVa unit on a trailer behind me.

As an example of mobile requirements . . . finding a native12volt power supply for a ‘heavyweight’ computer system!
Though it has to be said that LED lighting is progressing at an astounding pace.

I know this is jumping around all over the place, and that’s the issue . . .

Do we consume what we need?

or

Do we consume what we assume we have?

How many snowHead

leave their phone chargers plugged in? How many leave their AV systems on standby? Their microwave etc?

There is the thought that the less we spend in the summer the more we have to play with in the winter . . . how many snowHead

s have a PV system on thier roof?

A snowHead

Masque, look at the systems found in modern yachts, many of those use a combination of solar and wind power to trickle charge high capacity batteries

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

D G Orf, nice, but the problem for me is weight and cubic volume of the energy storage. Remember I'll be mobile, but the question to all 'fixed base' snowHead

s is . . . do you know how much energy you use/waste?

And do you feel responsible enough to invest in renewable systems? Say you were lucky to have a chalet in one of the South facing Alps resorts, do you invest in insulation, energy recovery, alternative energy resources?
Or do you ignore what seems to be inevitable and just keep on consuming?

This is no critique . . . it’s a question . . .

Do we really know what we consume?

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Masque, if it were me and I had the opportunity to build new in the alps then I'd certainly factor in as many energy efficient factors as possible along with high levels of insulation, energy recovery might be possible, alternative energy resources would also be considered though I'm not sure about solar power simply because of the need to keep the panels clear of snow in the winter.

Now how mobile are you planning to be, assuming a caravan or motor home I see no reason that a system designed for a small yacht would not be suitable for you, a laptop would be a better choice for a computer, it uses less power and can often be run from a standard 12v "cigarette lighter socket" via a standard accessory cable.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hi Masque,

I recommend you read some of Chris Bonnington's books ( I cannot remember the name of the one I read where he talks about this, it was a joint book, trying to climb a huge, not very famous mountain.....), he tried to be eco-friendly, took solar panels to carry on backs, place around tents and also wind generated systems.

All failed, he nicked power of the film crews diesel generator!

regards,

Greg

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rich, thanks, I'm getting a little out of my field and I'm having to do some research partly because a lot of hookups are of very limited Ampage and a good, quiet, clean output 3KVA generator can cost well over 2 grand. My understanding is that brushless motors have become the favoured motive source for domestic equipment and once running at a constant speed under ‘low loading’ are very efficient, but during startup or under load are far less efficient and require a much higher current than older brush and armature motors. As a simple example . . . a food processor being fed something a bit tough.

D G Orf, apart from the cost and lack of need for a very high end laptop or two, it’s almost impossible to get insurance cover for it/them while in a m/home, yet you can for a ‘normal’ computer (go figure). I have found a 12/24vDC ISO PSU for a standard computer case that cat be built into the body of the motor or even replace the PSU in my beloved G4.
Energy independence is not cheap or easy but I have found some 2v deep cycle gel/acid batteries that will give me storage capacity of almost 500 A/h at 12v without too much weight (weight is not as much of an issue for marine as it is for automotive). PV and wind regeneration is already planned into the system.

My real thought for this thread is simply . . . do we really know how much energy we need, use or waste? And how aware are we of more efficient lighting and domestic machines. I switched to 12v incandescent lighting years ago and recently moved to LED replacements (though it takes a while to get used to the colour spectrum difference) and I’ve yet to find a dimmer/transformer combination that works with LED.

After all it is free

Masque, I'm not sure that you can dim an LED, it's either on or off.

Kramer, yep you can, I've an LED torch that has two settings and they do dim as the batteries die, but the dimmer/transformer combos I've tried just don't and I also don't want to go back to traditional coil transformers.

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We're installing geo-thermal heating in the place we're building in Zinal actually, it seems a green option. I'm also interested in boosting with some solar stuff which we'll look at over the course of the build.

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Masque, all direct-on-line starting small electric motors whatever the type are going to have a starting surge of as much as 8 to 10 times normal running current. 'Twas ever thus. Even if started off load (which the safety interlocks on blenders won't let you do). But the spike is so short it's not an energy issue. The problem might be will your generator be able to cope with the starting surge? Or your invertor if you are using batteries. Generators will be able to supply a short time overload but not the same multiple. You might get a speed and voltage dip until the governor and AVR pick up but again only for a short time. Invertors are less happy coping with spikes.

3kVA is quite a big genny for a medium sized campervan. In round figures it's 13A. Very few appliances apart from washing machines actually draw 13A though the plug. Most get by happily on 3A or 5A each. The single biggest load you might have is say a 1kW electric fan heater which is mainly resistive. Add a few bits and pieces like lighting and small power and 2kVA is probably going to be sufficient. Especially if you use bottled gas for the fridge and cooking. Gas lighting is also nice and gives you some heat. If you could use gas heating then it would be relatively simple to use a battery system with PV and wind trickle charging for your much minimised electrical needs. A mains hook up (if available) would give you boost charging if necessary.

Having batteries, PV, wind power and a genny, while it sounds wonderfully self sufficient, is not really a terribly logical way to go. IMO. If you have to have a genny, size it correctly and don't bother with all the DC battery stuff. Mind you you're stuffed if the genny fails. Or go for maximum gas and renewables and ditch the genny completely. Use a hook up if there is one. French nuclear power is pretty efficient stuff.

Running an oversized genny lightly loaded is neither good for it nor efficient. Unloaded diesels get the injectors clogged up and belch soot when a decent load is imposed. You want a diesel on minimum 60% capacity to avoid trouble.
Sorry I can't answer your wider question of how much energy we need and waste.

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kuwait_ian, how about geo thermal though?

ise, lovely if you are lucky enough to be able to use it. The naturally heated spa-fed swimming pool in Monetiers was almost too hot for comfort last time I used it.
Solar water heating from roof panels is good tried technology and works well (Every villa in Cyprus uses it. Electricity is very expensive on the island). Not too sure how you'd keep snow off them in the Alpes. The panels have to be set at the optimum angle (matching latitude I think) so you cannot just pitch them up so steeply snow won't settle. Photovoltaic panels have not yet come down sufficiently in price to be a serious option for bulk power generation but they're OK for trickle charging boat batteries and the like.

You know it makes sense.

One of our local shopping centeres has bi coloured LED lights that fade in and out so it's definately possible to do so but it might need a specific design of LED, actually I've just remembered you can do it by pulsing the signal to the LED, I think you can also do it by changing the current going through the LED (battery running out of charge effect).

Beyond that I can't help you (I'm a mechanical engineer not an electrical one) but I'm sure their are companies out there that can

Being the kind and generous person that I am I have found you this rather interesting article, the subject of dimming LED's is at the bottom half of the page

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

kuwait_ian, As I'm discovering there are very few full serviced sites open in the Alps in Winter, a genny is de rigeur. The smallest remote/elec start ones (you have to build them in or they’ll get nicked very quickly) are 2.6-2.8KvA continuous (3 peak).
The ones with cleaned output often have a ‘smart’ throttle controlled by load and use much less fuel (claimed up to 60%) than constant speed versions

But there are loads of free or wild sites in regular use all over (Austria’s a bit sniffy about it but Italy’s littered with wild sites, many in or just outside the resorts). The other issue is keeping PVs clear of snow and the limited time they can output, add to that many resorts are in the mountain shadow at that time of year. Then there’s wind, the cheese diet helps but you can’t rely on it.
Heating is gas or pref. diesel blown air.
With a high capacity battery pack and an HD alternator, 99% of the time I’ll be on DC. The genny’ll just be needed for microwave and anything that’s 230 specific ie. Kettle, iron, boost heating on those mornings when the diesel gels –25?.

D G Orf, ta, I’ve discovered that dimmer/battery combo works fine with my LED lamps so it must be the output from the electronic transformers that’s not a true DC.
LED lighting is really taking off as a serious replacement for incandescent. http://members.shaw.ca/sagelighting/led_spotlights_and_bulbs_specifi.htm
and for automotive use you can have some fun
http://www.m-99.co.uk/Car_Neon_LED_Lighting/car_neon_led_lighting.html
though some products are pure kitch.

A snowHead

Masque, is your transformer varying voltage rather than current ?

A snowHead

D G Orf, a transformer in the old fashioned sense of a lump of magnetic material with a couple of windings can only transform voltage. Current is then determined by the impedance of the load. But as Masque and you have discovered from your link or other info, there are now so-called electronic transformers which can muck about with the output by chopping the 'DC' and thus effectively modulate current with a constant voltage.
Masque sounds as though you've got things well thought out. Sorry for teaching you egg sucking. You could probably run your kettle, iron and PC off the DC using an invertor to produce AC (not all at once though). Might even handle a small microwave? Seems a bit much wicking up the genny just to make a cuppa. What's wrong with a gas ring for heating water?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You could get your average consumption over a period by using your lekky meter. Take two readings and subtract the first to find your usage in kWHours. Divide by 230V (assuming your load is all resistive which is near enough true for most domestic users. Purists/pedants can use a power factor of 0.9 to get to KVA). Divide by the number of hours between readings and you'll get your average in Amps. If you did this over say a month from your bills, it would be a good guide. I'd be interested to know what a UK house figure is? I can't do it because my supply here is not metered for individual apartments and the huge A/C load would give a figure of no interest to you guys.

But Masque's problem is slightly different since he'll be limited in what he can use more by the peak loading - not the average.

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kuwait_ian, Suckin' eggs? Good lord no offence, the more input and advice I get the better. As a loathsome, odious, t*** I worked under years ago used to say (every soddin’ day at least six times a day!!!) “remember the golden Ps . . . prior planning prevents p¡ss poor performance” delivered in a whiney Georgia drawl . . . aaaaaagh! It still makes me want to slap the soab Evil or Very Mad

.
More info on winter camping reveals that most newer vans have excellent thermal properties and are pretty much hermetically sealed so If you’re a bit sloppy with your ventilation when cooking with gas, you can get a very unhealthy, high humidity, high CO atmosphere condensing in your nooks and crannies. . . . Can a motorhome get Thrush? Don’t want to find out Shocked

.

I started this thread ‘cos, whilst I’ve always claimed environmental karma it’s only now I’m having to sit down and actually calculate my use and consumption am I realising just how profligate I’ve become . . I’m quite shamed by it and by how far behind I am on technology improvements and how offended I am by the lack of information available to the general public.

I wonder how interested in conservation and energy independence we’d all become if there were a fixed limit on their meter or primary breaker. Looking at the price of oil and changing rainfall patterns perhaps it’s something that more snowHead

should be looking at?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You could use one of these:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=38343&doy=27m6D

to measure what you consume. New Scientist have an editorial on energy efficiency this week, they are fairly critical of the government for not taking a lead. Apparently the consequences of householders (and companies) actions are not entirely predictable; for instance, although microwaves are more efficient than conventional ovens their widespread uptake does not lead to reduced total energy consuption because people use them to heat prepared meals which consume more energy to produce... The editorial seems to arise from a recent report of the UK House of Lords Science and Technology Committee.

Masque, by "...autonomous living system..." you mean camper van, don't you? Toofy Grin

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All a bit technical for me.

All I can tell you is that for a cow to live, breathe and give you 40 litres of milk per day it will take about 275 Mega Joules which equates to about 50kg of silage and a further 12 kg of concentrate.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

johnboy, and if you stick an anemometer up its bum you can measure the methane output . . . I wonder how many cows and how much pipe I’d need to run a 3KvA genny?

After all it is free

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Adrian, Love the 'Bender' case, who says geeks don't have a SOH? I have found a 12/24v PSU to replace a 230 one, so that's covered, but as you say, monitors are another issue. I've banged off an email to LaCie to ask if they have any info on my blues.
kuwait_ian, add damp clothing to the mix and it could end up like breathing in a swamp but I've been told that there's a 24v dehumidifier on the truck market that might do the job. Since I'm planning to use 12x2v cells, a 24 volt tapoff shouldn't be a prob. Or I could go 24v native on the domestic side, which may be the better option since theres a lot more living equipment available . . . but that affects the PVs and generators available . . . booger! Evil or Very Mad

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Having spent 2 winters in a caravan here, I didn't find a major problem with condensation. My very old caravan was barely insulated so I stuck 1" polystyrene foam all over the inside, had 5 layers of carpet on the floor and stuck plexiglas over all the windows (no double glaxzing either). I was hooked up to a standard campsite hook-up, ran an oil filled electric 2Kw radiator, TV, Video and desktop computer without any problems. I also had thermal curtains. The gas bottle stayed outside but in winter I had to have the water bottle inside. It was fine and snug. I don't know if this is any use Masque, but it might help a bit. Very Happy

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Masque, Why? Laughing

You know it makes sense.

All 3 monitors we have at work are 12V, they have an AC adapter to run them from. Maybe it's a question of digging down into the specs a little to find those with the PS built in and those where it's external.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I always switch everything right off!
These days you can get solar power kits for your home use - solar panels on the roof that are simple to install. same goes for wind i think.
good luck!
Julia

Help!!

Energy?

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