How often do you fall when skiing? How much would you like to return healthy?

A snowHead

It's an achievement to get injured when not falling, though it's certainly possible. The risk of injury when falling is real, and best avoided. It's true that falls also arise for the best reason: limits being pushed. But the risk of catching an edge, losing balance, blowing up on a schuss - or hitting something - can be greatly reduced.

My personal ski years have been a game of two halves: 1959-1975 (16 years) and 1975-2005 (30 years). The injuries I suffered in that first chapter - very luckily no ankle or leg fractures during the days of leather boots and cable bindings - almost always occurred because of elementary errors. I remember a particularly nasty wrist injury in Saas Fee that put me out of action for the rest of the holiday.

I used to fall a fair bit, even during a season of working as an unqualified instructor (it was possible to teach unqualified in the old days). In 1975 I took a two-week period of intensive professional training on Cairngorm, in the hands of Ali Ross (photo). In the 30 years since training with Ali I've been virtually free of injury.

If you get lucky enough to train with someone as inspired as a BASI trainer, or another top-class instructor, you'll significantly reduce the risk of falling, and the risk of injury. It's a fantastic investment, but it needs to be concentrated and intensive. Not only does professional ski training drastically cut the risk of falling ... it can hugely increase your efficiency of skiing. Suddenly you can ski five times further without stopping ... and feel fine when you enjoy a breather. Best of all, you get to ski places you never dreamed of skiing before.

Have you minimised the risk of falling ... and enjoyed freedom of the mountain as a bonus?
Who did you train with?

A snowHead

David Goldsmith, Interesting post.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Goldsmith, Good question David.

I haven't trained with anyone quite in that fashion, although I think I'm a competent recreational skier. I don't fall very often except off piste and I don't fall often there either.

All I've done is put in a lot of hours (~140weeks?) with some early race training, intermittent instruction and much concentration. Also lucky enough to ski with many very good (trainers, high level racers, instructors) skiers quite a lot of the time.

What do you reckon makes the "big difference"?

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David Goldsmith, I don't fall very often these days. When I do I usually it's usually when I am trying to absolutely rip a difficult run and the consequences are usually pretty painful. In the last 3 months of the 03/04 season, the number of times I fell you could probably count on the fingers of one hand, but one led to a partial tear of a medial cruciate ligament and the other a full tear of my ACL Mad

Could you make the generalisation that the better the skier the more damage (s)he'll suffer in a fall?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

ACL ruptures are notorious for being often suffered by ski racers (pushing the limits, falling backwards, and twisting) ... and beginners (falling backwards, and twisting). But they're sadly suffered by just about everyone in between too. Minimising the risk of falling backwards is obviously a big factor for those not pushing the limits.

David - from a personal perspective, I'd say the three big things I learned from Ali were getting fore/aft balance correct (i.e. not hanging back in the boots), learning the right hand position, and learning how to steer skis from the knees. He totally took me apart in the process - an extraordinary revelation after 16 years of getting it wrong.

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I failed. Fell over without snow, even. About 5 weeks ago. At the dryslope. Deep bruise on my left knee, fluid still present around the top and side of my kneecap, and it feels "numb" there. Hurts when I press it & running, but otherwise no pain. GP says it'll go after a while, if not then I'm for arthrithro-whosiwhatsit (keyhole surgery).

Did it under instruction. Possible that speed was too fast when the tail of my ski hit the last slalom pole. But bearing in mind the instructor had instructed me on at least twice in the previous 2 weeks and watched me catch a few inside edges, should she have been doing more to monitor my progress and improve my technique?

And, bearing in mind a) the faster the speed the worse the injury upon "impromptu" stopping, and b) I wouldn't have gone that fast had I not received the training, then perhaps instruction facilitates the risk of injury? Twisted Evil

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I try to ski well within my comfort and ability envelope. I still fall but at very low speeds (quite often stood still). Considering the state of my knees I condsider my injury free holidays a huge bonus. Jumps and bumps are complete no no's. I also only tackle off piste in the easiest and best of conditions and fro short periods only. Dull I know, but if you hear someone singing "oh what a beautiful morning" from a chairlift at the top of their voice, it may well be me.

After all it is free

I fall more often when I'm with an instructor than I do when free skiing. This is bad because there is often video evidence which can be stepped through frame-by-frame to great embarrassment of the skier concerned Embarassed

I'm realtively new to skiing as I only started about 6-7 years ago. Like most people I fell a lot when learning and didn't suffer an injury, I'll qualify that as I did pull a muscle when standing still listening to instructor, not sure what happened but one moment I'm upright and the next on my back. The skis I was using didn't release the toe, something that I feel would not happen with the type of bindings available today.

Apart from that I haven't had an injury and I would put this down to knowing how to fall. I use to do Ju-Jitsu (was training for black belt when I packed in) and one of the first things you learn is how to fall correctly. If I fell whilst skiing the lessons I'd learnt took over and I would fall in a 'safe' manner.

On my last trip I fell twice both at Kicking Horse. Once due to the poor snow cover, caught edge on one of many twigs poking through the show on one pitch. And the other when gliding back to the lift, a lose of concentration was to blame I think. Despite being a bit of an old bug neither were as painful as the dmage to my pride.

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rob@rar.org.uk, Ouch ! snowHead

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antoeknee, makes a good point about "how to fall". I started skiing at age 4. I think that gives you a whole raft of skills around learning to fall well. As does practise...

David Goldsmith, fair enough, in other words, strong essentials!

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I fall almost every day. If you're not falling you are not pushing your limits are you? i think that i can ski almost any piste in any condition in control and not fall, but then i try to ski faster or go off piste or catch a little jump so i fall. Like rob@rar.org.uk, i ma more likely to fall with an istructor pushing me than on my own

I had a fantastic instructor in Pas a few years ago called Tony and i've nerver learnt so much in one week, off piste , jump turns fast carving etc. it did help that half the class dropped out leaving 3 of us for most of the week. fell quite abit that week but alot less since

You know it makes sense.

Of course, another way to limit the pain is to only ski off-piste - where the snow is softer.....

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

David Murdoch true, but knowing how to fall is only good as far as it goes. It's often just not possible - e.g. when you get caught out and get vilolently thrown around and dumped unceremoniously onto something that does not resemble snow - the only skiing falls I've had that did any damage were onto dirt (hit a patch of unmarked dirt in the piste and chest-planted into the other end of the dirt), and on plastic. No amount of "knowing how to fall" would've reduced those injuries.

Otherwise I find snow's remarkably forgiving if you don't somehow land funny, bending a limb in the process.

A snowHead

I reckon I didn't fall for about 6 years ...... but that's because I wasn't skiing!

I think there are three lessons here:

1) ensure that your bindings really are set accurately for you physically and for the aggression of your skiing. If you've lost a stone with all that pre-season training get yourself off to a tech and get your DIN checked, for instance

2) don't try to push yourself when you're tired / hungover / trying to impress the ladeez or lads (depending on your personal preference)

3) if you are going to push yourself, even us oldies can benefit from a helmet

last year I visited a friend in Austria. We had a beautiful powder day and as I came through the trees onto the side of the piste, going resonably fast but with clear view of other traffic I hit a mogul hiding under a heap of powder. I took a cartwheel down the piste and was fine, but my head was pretty sore and I can't help but think that if I wear a helmet while cycling, to not wear head protection while throwing myself down a mountain is pretty silly.

I've told Santa already and he (I mean I) will be buying something suitable before this season starts.

A snowHead

DG - I did a 2 week session with Ali Ross in Tignes about 16 years ago and it was the best thing I have ever done in my skiing lifetime (at the time I was at the ripe old age of 16 but still did wonders for my confidence and technique).

Anyone interested should check out www.alirossskiingclinics.com

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

That would be a year before I last skied with him. He was a VIP at the launch of the first Salomon ski on the Saas Fee glacier in 1990, carving like crazy. I once met Ali at his parents' croft, north of Inverness. He has quite a life story - hope it's put on paper sometime.

Some other really talented - and very friendly - BASI people I trained with were Alex Leaf, Andrew Lockerbie and John Gardiner. All BASI 1 trainers. They run a ski coaching programme called World Class Skiing.

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Manda, true, but it helps...thankfully snow is relatively forgiving.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Just ski where you can't fall

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sugardaddy, ah, the old "if you don't fall you're not trying" line is it? To a limited extent that's true, maybe. What happens if you spend a lot of time in zones where falling would be fatal? (Not, I hasten to add, that I do!)

Rather a short season ensues I'm afraid.

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David Murdoch,

exactly. There are lot's a places that wouldn't be fatal, but you don't want to fall. That's still pushing the limits. I could ski faster than I do on piste, but that would be pushing other people's limits.

After all it is free

Got to find where those limits are tho!! wink

A knee injury finished my rugby career, but almost 20 years of playing taught me the dynamics of falling and hitting inanimate objects and coming off first not second best.

Learned to instruct at Kicking Horse Mountain Resort, BC, Canada with Colin Young - CSIA Level 4 instructor and Level 3 examiner - and current Ski & Snowboard School Director of Kicking Horse. Most accomplished skier I've skied with and an excellent teacher. If you're in the area seek him out. You won't be disappointed.

I fall at least once a day, even when I'm instructing. There's no crime in falling. And I emphasise that with my students, young and old.

Too many recreational skiers never progress beyond the intermediate plateau because of the fear of falling. They're too stiff and as a consequence can't get themselves into positions that will improve the standard and efficiency of their skiing. And when they do fall unexpectedly - catching an edge - because they're so stiff the fall often results in injury.

And David (Goldsmith) you're in for another revelation if you start steering from the ankles and feet before you get the knees involved.

My signature fall in soft snow is over the handle bars, tuck to forward roll and ski away. Very Happy

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rob@rar.org.uk, not to be recommended. Looks like nice snow though!

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You know it makes sense.

Most of my falls are due to hitting patches of deep soft snow after a small hill and finding myself committed to doing an involuntary forward roll as the skis slow down. I'm trying to learn how to keep the weight back when the terrain flattens out - but easyski had some top advice (heavy on the common sense also)... "Why ski down something steep in a straight line, take it at an angle." I must remember that more often snowHead

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

David (Goldsmith),

It's all about the toes, heels, feet and ankles. Get that right and everything else flows naturally.

A snowHead

Last season on a course I did, we spent a while practising barrel rolls in the powder - got a bit of speed up then flung yourself over with the aim of flipping right over back onto your skis again without stopping. Despite the fact that anyone passing by thought we must have been totally bonkers, it was great fun (like being a kid and jumping in snowdrifts all over again!! snowHead

). Though we did it for a bit of a laugh and probably so the coach could just make fools of us (the kind of "I'll see if they'll do anything I tell them" thing), there was a more serious purpose in that in many situations (not the extreme ones!) it is better on your knees to accept you are going to fall over and just go with it flipping straight back up afterwards and getting on with it, than fighting the fall.

A snowHead

David Goldsmith suggests that those who fall more have increased risk of injury. I'm not sure this is true. It could be that those who fall more often are better at it and less likely to get injured.
There is also the suggestion that falling is failing.
I don't agree with this either. I think falling is part of the fun.
And fun is what I think skiing is all about. Dont you?
Skiing is adults at play. I do not think I am taking a test when I ski, nor am I in a competition.
But I do like to up the adrenaline by going a little faster, trying a steeper line or going straighter down the bumps.
That is my thrill. My fix. And I fall all the time.
No fall, no Fun is my philosophy.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Murdoch, i wish i were good enough to ski that much "you fall you die terrain", but i'm not. so at my current level, on most of the terrain i ski, ipush the envelope and fall. Just like Bode Miller (I wish)

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We never have a last run of the day, always two and then we quit after the one. Sounds a bit silly but it helps get rid of the last run rashness sometimes. Its a given now we don't have to set it up anymore.

I always like to think I can get through the hol' without a fall but I'm skiing harder stuff now so that isn't really feasible.

But on some terrain a fall isn't really an option, you can't afford the risk so you should have what I call a banker turn. It might be a stem or whatever and it might not be pretty but it might just be your best ever turn. Some of the stuff I have been on is a bit beyond my skill level but I like to think I can be safe on it..!!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Well I try to avoid falling cos it hurts, worst I've done is sprain my ankle a couple of times, once due to one ski going under a tree root whilst the other carried on, mind you I've seen a lot of very nasty accidents over the years, 90% of them were due to people being careless or stupid e.g skiers trying to ski piste that were too much for them, skiing at speed in poor visability and one of the worst trying to cross a bridge the wrong way

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The discussion in the EpicSki thread, " Results of the polls on frequency of falling":
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=7181

may be of interest to participants in this thread.

Tom / PM

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For me personally, skiing is very much a game of confidence and a bad fall does nothing for that!

While I like to progress and seek out new challenges, I prefer to do it gradually making sure I am only taking small steps at a time. 'No pain - no gain' and 'Go hard or go home' may seem like fun mantras in a gym or other sports where the risk of serious injury is far lower, but when the consequences from a bad skiing fall could be hobbling around for a year having had reconstructive surgery to a knee, these macho phrases don't seem so clever to me anymore rolling eyes

Skiing between 2 and 3 weeks each year is never going to make me a top class skier, nor a ski racer, so for me staying healthy to enjoy the skiing sensations, mountain views and air is top priority. So no bad falls for me if I can help it by making sure I only take small steps at a time.

After all it is free

The other thing about falling is that it is very tiring, particularly if you are in deep snow and have a pack. If I'm touring I usually ski quite conservatively partly because you're a long way from help if something goes wrong and partly because it is so nackering picking yourself up!

JT, What a very good point. "Last run" injuries - I've always heard about these and was never convinced although I have seen my own behaviour on "last runs" so...

Oddly enough I can clearly picture my last two "bad" falls. The scariest was in Cortina where the BH and I weer hooning down some black between two cliffs. I "caught an edge" and was suddenly upside down doing 45mph or so towards a cliff. As you can tell I stopped (just) in time but had peeled a square inch off my scalp in the process. Unsightly.

The other was last years inferno when I slightly overcooked it on the second pitch and my ridiculously long skis caught some inappropriate air. the guy who fell 3 runners after me was heli'ed off somewhere so again, another life crossed off.

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I'm another in the "if you're not falling you're not trying" camp, to the extend that I normally fall over more in a week than the rest of the group I'm with put together. I've had some great falls off-piste including some stunning head-plants snowHead

but only hurt myself to an extend that would interfere with skiing when falling on-piste.

I think being an ex-skydiver may well have helped ameliorate the severity of falls, and of course practice makes perfect Wink

- first working out how to keep your feet out of the way, then how to self-arrest etc..... I often wonder whether those who get worried about falling do so because it's the fear of the unknown - not realising that even big falls can be quite innocuous. If anyone wants any tips I would say the most important things are: a) at all costs jam your legs/feet together immediately, so stopping your skis going in different directions which could generate enough leverage to twist knees or possibly break legs; b) try and fall on your side, with a bent body, so you roll into the fall rather than falling straight - you then stop over a much longer time and the impact is much less - also tuck your chin onto your chest to stop any head impact forcing your neck back; c) if you're still sliding once you've hit the ground, get your feet/skis in the air - stopping them catching and causing you to tumble - once you're sliding straight roll onto your stomach and use knees and hands to arrest the slide. Not sure whether you'd have time to do much of this though if catching an edge at 50mph Sad

. In general don't worry too much about actually hitting the snow - it may hurt for a few minutes but doesn't usually cause serious damage, even though the bruises may look bad in a few days. Do try and stay out of the way of your poles though - I've had a few badly bruised thumb joints through falling on my pole on a hard piste.

I am doing more stuff now where the consequences of a bad fall are getting more serious (more exposed and remote off-piste - although not yet as extreme as JT appears to do - and falling on Dendix does hurt and damage you), so some modification of that policy is required. Fortunately, improving technique means I feel less need to push myself quite so hard to ski the stuff I want to, and last year I had my first day ever without a fall, which hapened to be a glorious deep powder day - so I was quite pleased with myself then Little Angel

.

Help!!

How often do you fall when skiing? How much would you like to return healthy?

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