I've done these a few times with an instructor, as an on-piste preparation for skiing powder. With only fairly moderate success, it has to be said. Stayed on feet, but tended to do just a few turns - maybe 8 at best - then just lose it, and have to stop.
No powder to play in (some slush though) so I am trying to get these turns better, on piste. Stéphane (the instructor) looked very different to what I felt like. He said I needed to be more "tonique" (ie less like a sack of potatoes lumbering around, which is what I felt like)
Not an expert skier by any means but one of the tips I got on an off-piste course I did was to think about tensing your core muscles. I find this helps when I am flopping about like a sack of potatoes like you say
I also find being really relaxed helps as then you don't tend to get bounced about as much, I've not tried being really relaxed with a tense core though
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hi pam w. You need to understand exactly what is happening there, what the technical components are. Remember the "design a drill" thing we did the last day at camp? Same thing here. Just put the skills together.
These are carved cross under turns. They aren't steered. Pressure and the carve comes at the falline. Knee angulation is used, so that lateral balance is never really established, so the skis carve, but they don't really push the body across the slope as they do, they just carve and cut under the body. At a point while cutting under the body they lose all pressure and rebound. The body is kept facing down the falline, in an anticipated position, so when the skis release their engagement with the snow and rebound, the anticipation causes them to pivot downhill while they're light. Pressure is established again about the time the pivot has reached the falline, the skier carves again, and the process is repeated.
So, the components are:
- Body kept facing down the falline, to create anticipation at transition.
- Pivot the top of the turn
- Blocking pole plant, helps power the pivot.
- Knee angulation, so balance is not established, and skis cut under the body
- Pressure and carve established post pivot, when skis have reached the falline.
The issues that will cause execution failure are:
- Body following skis, in a square stance. Anticipation counter at transition is needed to smoothly power the pivot.
- Not carving, post pivot. Carving is needed to get the rebound that lightens the skis so they can pivot. It also is the thing that allows the skis to cross under the body with such dynamic speed.
- Not knee angulating. Knee angulation lets the skis carve under the body. Hip angulating puts the skier in balance, and the turning skis drive the body across the slope instead. They don't cross under.
Prerequisite skills needed skills to pull it off:
- Ability to change rotational states, and ski square, rotated, or countered.
- Keen ability to carve turns of various shapes.
- Ability to employ various types of angulation; hip, knee, or combination of the two.
- Of course, solid balance skills, fore/aft and lateral.
Break it down, then. Build it, one piece at a time. Start by just focusing on keeping your upper body facing down the falline, and using a strong pole plant for each turn. Next, pick up the tempo, in and out of each turn quicker. Next, only tip the ski on edge from the knees down. Everything from knees up stays vertical. Finally go for pivot into a clean carve, no steering or skidding. Just see what happens.
PS: start on nicely groomed, moderate pitch terrain.
The idea of learning to make zero pivot, high end carved short turns as an aid to ski powder seems really counter-productive, in my opinion!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
DaveC, why is that? Doesn't a turn initiation with no/little rotation have a place in off-piste skiing?
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, because all of the required skills to execute the turns in that video have very little priority in off piste, especially powder, skiing? I'd much rather solid pivoting and the feeling of moving the skis/platform in steering and in dealing with friction from ungroomed snow.
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DaveC, we use the non-canadian definition of pivoting - a non-weighted redirection of the skis... this is not steering... and is difficult if your skis are in the snow because you need to pop them out... steering is a different skill than pivoting for us... I know in canada ALL movement of femur in hip socket comes under the pivot definition... which means you will see it differently as CSIA 4 trainers have said they strongly believe a carve has pivoting in it...
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Oh and those are APSI - so they ski slush that way too!
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little tiger, fair enough - I'm not sure either way on that one, or qualified to weigh in. What do the rest of the world call turning the femur in the hip socket then - as in, how would you make short turns on 40m radius skis or whatever?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DaveC,
steering... that is weighted redirection of skis
pivoting... unweighted redirection of skis
turns shorte than ski radius can be created either way...
here is our glossary entry on steering http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Steering.html you will see that Fastman does not rotate femur in hip socket really for those... pelvis and skis stay facing same direction...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Very interesting, thanks folks. DaveC, what skills would you want to teach to aid powder skiing - and how would you go about it? Several SHs who have reported on their learning at "off piste" ski courses have spoken of starting on piste - and that's what I need to be doing at the moment.
Do you have any video you could flag up of the kind of turns you would advocate?
I don't think I'm capable of doing short radius carved turns!! Not with much consistency, that's for sure, but I can work on some of the foundation skills like keeping the upper body facing down the fallline.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w, LOL, I'm feeling a little evil here - if you want to do short radius turns can they be 'carved' turns given the recent discussion of what was 'carving'? I would have thought if you wanted to turn smaller than the radius the ski was designed to turn at that it couldn't be pure carving and must therefore have some other description ?
I'm enjoying this thread as I think I was getting close to starting to learn what was shown in the video on holiday lessons in January.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
The idea of learning to make zero pivot, high end carved short turns
-
Quote:
Doesn't a turn initiation with no/little rotation have a place in off-piste skiing
not sure if i'm following this one - these turns on the vid, to which the discussion is referring, are started with a distinct pivot, then carved once the skis reach the fall line...so I don't understand what these comments are getting at?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum no the turns are not carved arc to arc turns...
FastMan wrote:
... At a point while cutting under the body they lose all pressure and rebound. The body is kept facing down the falline, in an anticipated position, so when the skis release their engagement with the snow and rebound, the anticipation causes them to pivot downhill while they're light. Pressure is established again about the time the pivot has reached the falline, the skier carves again, and the process is repeated.
...
- Pivot the top of the turn
The skis carve part of the turn and are pivoted for the top section...
Those guys are the Australian demo team. That is one of the short turn demos required for the Australian level 3 exam IIRC. (They are required to do them in bumps I think)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
That video has actually made me physically aroused
This is what I spend 90% of my ski-time (trying to) doing.
When you feel the rebound energy of the skis quickly crossing under your body - flying across the hill while your upper body stays forward and facing down the hill - it's a huge rush
FastMan, great description of the skills - thanks.
This is the mistake I make...
Quote:
- Not knee angulating. Knee angulation lets the skis carve under the body. Hip angulating puts the skier in balance, and the turning skis drive the body across the slope instead. They don't cross under.
[/quote]
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[quote="red 27"]That video has actually made me physically aroused, this is what I spend 90% of my ski-time (trying to) doing.
The idea of learning to make zero pivot, high end carved short turns
-
Quote:
Doesn't a turn initiation with no/little rotation have a place in off-piste skiing
not sure if i'm following this one - these turns on the vid, to which the discussion is referring, are started with a distinct pivot, then carved once the skis reach the fall line...so I don't understand what these comments are getting at?
Yeah, this is probably where it should of read "steering" in line with the definitions little tiger mentioned.
pam w, I'm not sure of a specific turn type/shape I can look for a video of that'll transfer directly to off piste - but a solid foundation of "steering" (ie being able to turn the ski effectively without edging it) and fore/aft balance, including the idea of leg extension and up-unweighting to cross over, is all you really need, and you can find that kind of thing in drills. I was watching people ski here a lot recently while we had a few back to back snow days - one thing I noticed was that a lot of people can ski off piste in control and effectively without having a really advanced skill set. Normally I wouldn't interject or disagree with Fastman, but thoughts of trying to ski like that video (knee angulation, crossing under) sound like a recipe for disaster off piste.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
i quite enjoy crossing under (or that's what I think I am doing - who knows whether I really am) in powder. however, it's not something i'd recommend before you are pretty comfortable off piste and i find it best for medium to long radius turns
maybe if I buy that track it'll make all the difference?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I spotted crossing under in videos that were posted last year. I was actually able to see it happening and for once could see what was being done. I think it would be useful to be able to do it and I wonder how close I am to doing so. The trouble is without video footage I find it very difficult to tell what I am actually doing as it all happens so quickly. Do those of you that are trying this sort of thing find that you CAN feel when you are doing something different, and are you able to tell that you are doing it correctly?
'It' being of course the skiing manoeuvre, rather than anything else
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Do those of you that are trying this sort of thing find that you CAN feel when you are doing something different, and are you able to tell that you are doing it correctly?
Sometimes. I can usually feel that I'm doing something incorrectly, but it takes some skilled diagnosis and prescription to help put it right - that's why video feedback is so good.
I suppose that's why exercises like the one you suggested, balancing poles on hands, are good - because they're self-correcting. Get it wrong, the poles drop off. Simples. Grab them in your hands and you can convince yourself you're not really waving them about.
I realise that's a very advanced manoevre in that video (and probably not what Stéphane was trying to get me to do, actually). Still, we can dream, can't we?
I practised it a bit today, and once or twice got the pole planting right, and that made a big difference. But the snow was not very cooperative (that's my excuse, anyway!). I did get the cross under a few times too, but on longer radius turns than that video. Will have to have another look at Fastman's DVD on cross under. It's a very economical way of getting your skis from one side to the other.
FastMan, will doing some of the building blocks of that - especially the pivot, be a bit easier with shorter skis? Had fairly long ones today.
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pam w, Of all things it's the pole planting (pole touchdowns/pole taps - whatever) that I struggle with. In some lessons I have been encouraged to do it, in Les Arcs the instructor said not to worry about it and they would sort themselves out in due course. When I deploy them the rest of the skiing goes to pot. I've always skied so far without using them as I am meant to. Yet, oddly I miss them if I am asked to do without them (though as my skiing has improved I've noticed that it gets far quicker to adjust to not having them in my hands 'conventionally') When I am without them I find that I concentrate much more on what my skis are doing and oddly I find I am much more confident on the skis without the poles now than I used to be. I begin to feel that the skis are extensions of my feet - I can move the 'skis' rather than my foot - lift them up, put them down, move around in them as though they are becoming a part of me, but it's when I don't hold the poles normally that I become more atuned to the 'skis' as though they are part of me.
So I can go one way - that is manage without them, I like to hold them (I think probably for balance), but if I try for more than a hesitant pole touch they get muddled beyond belief. In fact I've even known the skis end up over the edge of baskets and nearly trip me up I have been told that as it gets steeper I will find the poles, deployed properly, useful and these short turns should be where I start to do it I think, but unless I can get the co-ordination I think I'm a yard sale waiting to happen. It's most odd as normally I've got a massive sense of rhythm and dance, but it's just not a natural action for me.
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pam w, There is a progression for short radius turns.
Start with pivot slips, then smeary turns, then gradually start to engage the edges more, finally engage the edges earlier and earlier in the turn.
Easier said than done.
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What the guy is doing in the video is about right for powder skiing but the movements are far too dynamic, the skidding the back of the ski to smear off speed will lead you astray and his feet are a bit too close together to provide a good platform in very changeable off piste conditions but the basic skis parallel, angled on inner edges then completely flat, balanced over skis fore/aft then onto other edges is spot on. I'm not sure I would spend a lot of time emulating the skiing in the video though. I'm sure he's an excellent skier in all conditions.
As DaveC says, the skill set for skiing powder is not that extensive:
i. skis parallel during the turn on inside edges but very little emphasis on edging, skis with maybe 20-30cm gap (we're not Jean Vuarnet are we?)
ii. leg extension/flexion but gently does it
iii. no edge at the pivot point with skis flat, weight central over the skis, at this point, on a pair of rockered skis someone would be able to spin you on a sixpence
iv. avoid excessive body movement, shoulder rotation, flailing arms etc which will put you off balance
useful on piste skills are being able to stand on a slope with both edges gripping, rotate knees to side slip both skis with no edges catching, ski into fall line, still with absolutely no edging and carve round to face the opposite direction
javelins, turning on uphill ski etc are good drills for balance which is crucial
but I wouldn't spend too much time at it on piste, don't intellectualize stuff too much and actually go and ski some powder. Best bet is to find a not too steep slope where you won't go too fast and start off with extension/compression with pole planting then add in a bit of (i) and (iii) to make very gentle turns.
What I can't emphasize enough is to get rid of any spastic upper body movement, get someone to video you on piste. Pole plant and that's it. Your guy in the video is excellent.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof, I'm pretty sure that is a bunch of different guys...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
little tiger wrote:
davidof, I'm pretty sure that is a bunch of different guys...
yes that may be, those australians all look the same to me
[note alegzander1971 comment about stance and tail skidding which I would say are negative points for powder in that video and also over angulation if applied to powder]. Of course this is all well and good for short radius turns but the practicalities of a lot of off piste are having to vary the turn radius as the snow and slope topology changes, they are also very short radius turns if you are using wide skis and might be frowned on by freeriders.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w,
Quote:
what skills would you want to teach to aid powder skiing - and how would you go about it? Several SHs who have reported on their learning at "off piste" ski courses have spoken of starting on piste - and that's what I need to be doing at the moment.
best drills for learning the skills to ski off piste & powder is to- actually go and ski off piste & powder!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Davidof, why do you feel that making a dynamic turn in powder is bad? I strive to be as dynamic as possible in all conditions. I have been skiing with a few of the guys in that video recently and their powder turns don't look all too different from that video.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
jimmer wrote:
Davidof, why do you feel that making a dynamic turn in powder is bad? I strive to be as dynamic as possible in all conditions. I have been skiing with a few of the guys in that video recently and their powder turns don't look all too different from that video.
Because you don't have to and for someone starting out in powder, moving from a solid surface to essentially a fluid, they will oversteer and fall if they try to ski like that and end the day very tired and frustrated.
As I said the guys in the video are excellent, can I say more than that really?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
This is true, you don't have to have movements that dynamic, but you could equally say that about skiing on piste. Surely we are talking about how to best ski powder here, which would be dynamically, obviously I wouldn't start an intro to powder lesson by encouraging them to get as far inside the turn as possible, but I would say that should be the goal in the end?
And whilst the best way to get good at skiing powder is to ski a lot of powder, an alternative is just to get good at skiing in general, if you have strong turns on piste you won't find it too hard to make the transition to the deep stuff.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jimmer wrote:
obviously I wouldn't start an intro to powder lesson by encouraging them to get as far inside the turn as possible, but I would say that should be the goal in the end?
One thing I would say, if there was a risk of avalanche I'd be happen to send one of those guys down the slope first.
The skiers in that video are almost demoralisingly good at it aren't they? I wonder how long you have to ski for before you are half that clever?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
davidof wrote:
his feet are a bit too close together
I thought that too, but for on-piste skiing as well as off-piste. I prefer more of a turn shape/style similar to the ones in this video - not saying they're perfect examples of skiing but closer to what I'd look for. Ignore the gates sections, focus on the free-skiing
Sideshow_Bob, I agree although a couple of them seem to have a tendency to lift their inside ski at the start of each turn, which I try to avoid. This was a habit of mine for a long time, eventually drummed out of me by a Canadian instructor.
Also much prefer floaty rounded turns in powder rather than bouncy short. Or just straightline it
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The big thing for me - at punter level - is not to let my shoulders get turned across the hill with the skis as the latter 'cross under'. It takes a conscious effort and definte core strength to keep enough (in fact any ) separation
After all it is free
After all it is free
When the skiers do it properly does it take a lot of effort for them to ski like that? It appears to be quite strenuous to look at it.
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I like that PSIA vid, making the turns a bit wider allows them to be even more dynamic. Can anyone find any similar vids showing high level off piste skiing?
As for whether it's more strenuous, compared to what? It's way more work than doing a basic parallel at teaching speed, but not as much as skiing bumps fast.
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FastMan,
Quote:
These are carved cross under turns.
question for the technique experts, what are the relative merits of crossover vs crossunder vs crossthrough transitions for short rad turns? Are some best for steeps, some for bumps, some for off piste etc? Some of the PSIA turns look more like crossover than under, is that just me?
Then again, am I correct in understanding that all short rad turns must have some rotation (either steering or pivoting) - a purely carved short rad turn is physically impossible unless you're on <5 m radius skis? And, can we say that "pivot & carve" is better than "steer all the way round" in some situations...?
FAQ
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