Having heard opposing views from different instructors this year, what's going on? Why stand up into a turn? Why plant a pole?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
force = mass * acceleration
We can increase our 'weight' or the force going down through our skis by accelerating our mass upwards. More force means more grip - unless we are overpowering the skis.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
James the Last, Stick plant.. two reasons - 1) Timing (someone cleverer than me can explain that one) 2) Extra support during edge change.
Stand up at the start of the turn. The reason I like to think of is that, during the second half of the turn you (should) have flexed you ankles, knees, hips to absorb some of the pressures generated during the turn. You need to straighten you legs before starting the next turn so you can repeat. Think about a sprin
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
ski, stand on some bathroom scales and look at the reading. Bob down - like one of those famed compression turns for moguls - and you will see the reading fall for a moment. Stand up again and the reading will rise.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'd always equated vertical movement (whether up of down) with momentary unweighting to allow the skis to turn easier (pivot). Hence why in modern carving not so much need for dramatic unweighting moves as you actually want that force through the ski to maintain/initiate the carve. Admittedly I don't try to overthink it but I do look forward to the impending physics bunfight.
After all it is free
After all it is free
fatbob, The timing is important, both old school up unweighting and inner leg extension could be described as "standing up into a turn" but they are trying to do different things.
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James the Last wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Are you standing "up" or "across" your skis?
No idea. Please explain?
One of the things we want to do when we start a new turn is to get our centre of mass to cross from one side of our skis to the other (so we can change on to the new edges and balance against the new outside ski). An "up and down" movement (better described as flexion and extension) should help us create that lateral move across our skis.
Depending on the rate and range of movement the flexion and extension may (a) create a momentary lightness to make it easier to rotate our skis in to a new direction, or (b) create a powerful push against the snow, thus engaging the ski from the start of the turn.
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For me planting the pole is the trigger for the turn , the lateral movement across the skis is in my mind going through a side door. Sounds a bit daft but it worked for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For me, rightly or wrongly, the pole plant just sort of indicates where the turn is to start at, and starts a process for me. Once I start on the run I dont really think about it too much. just a case of looking for a place I want to turn and trying to get everything set up in my mind for it.
As I tend to pivot turn (yeah, I know), The up movement, usually at the pole plant, definitely aids the turning (pivoting) process.
My aim for EoSB is to get away from the pivots unless I need them (I like them), decent steering turns (which I can do when I try instead of just flow) and a bit of a go at carving a turn.
I spend ages just getting into a rythm of plant and up, and plant and up, and plant and up.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
In low performance turns (of whatever radius) the pole plant "just" acts as a timing trigger. Don't underestimate the "just" there. Used properly, the timing trigger acts as the "heart beat" against which all other body movement is synchronised.
The more performant and shorter your turns, the more a pole plant turns from something that's a nice to have and into and essential.
In higher end short turns a pole plant provides support and / or provides a turning moment.
Support is probably the easiest concept. You're on steep terrain, you want to do a jump turn and the pole plant gives you something to support and steady you as you turn.
The idea of a turning moment is more difficult. If you're doing really short turns, such as short swings, or bracquage, then you build up what is often called "anticipation" - a twisting torque in the torso of your body due to your shoulders being down the hill and your hips / knees / feet being across the hill.
What you want to happen next is that your hips / knees feet untwist themselves down the hill and across it so that you're in anticipation the other side.
Unfortunately, the natural inclination of your body is to untwist towards the hips - as it's the path of least resistance. And your body likes the path of least resistance.
A good pole plant provides enough resistance that your body will decide that untwisting the way you want it to is the better idea. Technically, the pole plant provides a "turning moment" that blocks you untwisting.
Simples...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FlyingStantoni,
nice
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Up and down.
What rob@rar says. But I'll try it a different way - in case it helps.
Up and down movement fundamentally controls the pressure your skis exert on the snow.
Standing up, or flexing, quickly reduces the amount of pressure against your skis - making it easier to turn them. So one legitimate way of initiating a turn is to flex up quickly; lighten the skis and let them drift around.
But that's only part of the story.
If extending or flexing quickly reduces pressure, then extending or flexing slowly (or too slowly) builds up pressure. Pressure tends to bend the ski into reverse camber (something we like) and, if your ski is on edge, engages the edges.
The problem, though, is that pressure is the Goldilocks of skiing skills. It's what separate the men from the boys.
Pressure the skis by the right amount, at the right time and you'll engage the ski and make it work for you. Pressure it too hard, too quickly and you'll destroy the edge grip the ski has. So you need a lot of sensitivity - which is what takes the time to learn.
Most higher end skiers keep in mind the goal of always having constant pressure being applied into the snow - all the way around the turn. Which means that you have to be constantly flexing and extending.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
FlyingStantoni,
nice
Why thank you sir. Trust the trip is going well. (I'm hoping that I was listening to MrsFS properly.)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FlyingStantoni wrote:
The problem, though, is that pressure is the Goldilocks of skiing skills. It's what separate the men from the boys.
Pressure the skis by the right amount, at the right time and you'll engage the ski and make it work for you. Pressure it too hard, too quickly and you'll destroy the edge grip the ski has. So you need a lot of sensitivity - which is what takes the time to learn.
Excellent!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Depending on which instructors I ski with some tell me to try and get pole plants sussed esp. as they will help to get the weight forward, others tell me that I will naturally start to use them when I need them. Personally I don't like them because the moment I try to engage them the skiing seems to go out of the window. When I remember I am trying a brief flick and a touch, but its not a formal 'pole plant' and because I've managed without them for so long I even have to think to make the poles do even that. So which instructors are correct - at my current level do I need a pole plant and will I naturally start to use them when I do need them?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, personally, I think that getting a nice rounded turn shape - so that you're making "C" shaped turns, rather than "Z" shaped turns - is more important for most intermediates.
Once you've go that then adding some "flow" from turn to turn.
And then worrying about up and down and using your edges more - so that you can ski at a higher average speed and on steeper terrain.
In a sense, a pole plant can wait.
But do bear in mind that you'll reach a point where it'll block your progress.
I offer this here, because I may not get another opportunity...
Someone I train with suggests that you pole plant like you've got an annoying, evil dwarf in front of you who is taking the wee wee. His advice is to pole plant like you mean it...
- stab 'em in the toe
- punch 'em in the face
- stab 'em in the toe
- punch 'em in the face
(No people of a small stature were harmed in the forming of this analogy...)
We can increase our 'weight' or the force going down through our skis by accelerating our mass upwards. More force means more grip - unless we are overpowering the skis.
Quite. This makes perfect sense. Therefore standing up helps to put more pressure onto a ski which helps it to grip which is particularly helpful on an icy slope. This is rob@rar's situation (b)
rob@rar wrote:
Depending on the rate and range of movement the flexion and extension may (a) create a momentary lightness to make it easier to rotate our skis in to a new direction, or (b) create a powerful push against the snow, thus engaging the ski from the start of the turn.
(a) I just don't understand. The action of standing up increases the pressure on the skis whilst you are standing. 50% of French ski instructors who try to explain this equate standing up with being further from the ground and therefore making you lighter, which is obviously rubbish. rob@rar please explain how the rate and range of movement can be combined to create (a).
Which brings me into the other conundrum. That of pole planting. Clearly placing weight on your pole reduces the force on the skis which obviously competes with (b). And it's obviously extremely useful if you're trying to jump over a bump. And also an extremely useful way of getting your weight down the mountain (by leaning on a pole placed downhill) which helps with turning. But it definitely competes with getting extra weight on the skis.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
altis,
Quote:
stand on some bathroom scales and look at the reading. Bob down - like one of those famed compression turns for moguls - and you will see the reading fall for a moment. Stand up again and the reading will rise.
James the Last, If you stand up quickly enough you leave the ground. A jump is just a quick extension of the legs. If you make that move with enough finesse you can get "light" without leaving the ground.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
James the Last, no conundrum with pole planting as there is no single purpose for using the pole. It can act as a timing aid; it can act to create or restrict movement of your upper body; it can be an additional point of balance; it can aid in jumping; it can help recover your stance; etc. Once you have acquired a good pole plant action and timing you can use it to help with all those things (which is why I think Megamum should persevere despite any temporary negative effect on other aspects of her skiing).
After all it is free
After all it is free
James the Last,
Quote:
(a) I just don't understand. The action of standing up increases the pressure on the skis whilst you are standing. 50% of French ski instructors who try to explain this equate standing up with being further from the ground and therefore making you lighter, which is obviously rubbish.
I'll have a go. Think about altis, 's scales. Imagine you are making a small jump. All the time you a stretching your legs, the scales will read heavier... until the point that you leave the ground, or stop stretching. At that point - if you leave the ground, you wll have no weight on the scales - i.e. unweighted.
Even if you don't leave the ground, as you cease to extend your legs you will see a reduction in the weight record on the scales.
So extension/Stretching = increasing pressure on the skis. Static means not changing pressure on the skis by means of extension/flexion. Bending/Flexing = reducing pressure on the skis.
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Can we have a video clip of this turning moment/blocking untwisting pole plant - I've probably got my directions wrong in the the description but it sounds ods.
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Thanks. So you create a powerful push against the snow enabling the skis to grip in order to start your turn, and then at the point of turning you are effectively jumping (and pushing down on your pole) so as to lighten your weight in order to let the skis come round. Therefore this means you land more firmly after the "jump" helping your skis to grip better again as you begin to traverse. Tricky this skiing lark, isn't it!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
James the Last, no conundrum with pole planting as there is no single purpose for using the pole. It can act as a timing aid; it can act to create or restrict movement of your upper body; it can be an additional point of balance; it can aid in jumping; it can help recover your stance; etc.
And it can help you deal with nasty dwarfs...
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 12-04-11 11:36; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
James the Last wrote:
Thanks. So you create a powerful push against the snow enabling the skis to grip in order to start your turn, and then at the point of turning you are effectively jumping (and pushing down on your pole) so as to lighten your weight in order to let the skis come round. Therefore this means you land more firmly after the "jump" helping your skis to grip better again as you begin to traverse.
Not quite.
As you go through a turn, forces build up through the interaction of the ski with the ground - pushing up against you. This is the "pressure" you need to manage.
The rate at which you extend or flex against this pressure determines how "light" of "heavy" you become.
Extend (or flex) more quickly than the pressure through the ground and you'll feel "light". Extend (or flex) really quickly and you and your skis will leave the ground.
Extend (or flex) more slowly and you'll feel like you're resisting the ski and you'll feel "heavy".
One way of turning is to extend really quickly so the skis are light; allow them to get into the falline and then get on your edges at the bottom half of the turn.
"Jumping" and using the pole plant for support only really kicks in for very short turns - typically on the steeps. By short I mean that the skis are turning within a corridor not much bigger than their length. So, for a 170cm ski, you're looking at a 180cm-200cm corridor.
"Jumping" and using the pole plant for support in turns in a wider corridor is inapprorpriate, inefficient and, frankly, will make you look like an idiot.
Extending quickly enough to get some lightness in the skis is all that's required.
But remember - it's only one way of turning. As I said, higher end skiers generally seek to be constantly flexing and extending so that the perceieved pressure through their feet is constant.
And your skis will only grip if they're on edge. And to be on edge your Centre Of Mass needs to be on the downhill side of the skis. Which is rob@rar's point about the direction in which you extend.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
James the Last wrote:
... 50% of French ski instructors who try to explain this equate standing up with being further from the ground and therefore making you lighter, which is obviously rubbish...
Indeed. The force of gravity will decrease with distance but, in this case, only by a tiny amount.
So many instructors, and even trainers, talk so much bollox that, IMV, Newton ought to be one of the Fundamental Elements. Sure, if you just try to explain skiing in terms of the physics, most learners will just switch off instantly. However, some will benefit from knowing what's going on and the teacher should NEVER EVER explain something in a way that is clearly wrong. This simply confuses the learner and can undermine their position.
little tiger, Thanks - I get that it's just the idea that the pole plant "blocks" the natural tendency to unwind - I'd say it facilitates the unwind (and wind up in other direction)
Edit - I am a dunce I've not read Stantoni's post thoroughly enough - His argument IIUI is that the upper body will unwind to the feet if you don't actively correct it. I'm just not sure that that's the way it feels in practice.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
little tiger - great diagram and clips
fatbob wrote:
His argument IIUI is that the upper body will unwind to the feet if you don't actively correct it. I'm just not sure that that's the way it feels in practice.
You are far from a dunce my friend.
You are correct - the natural tendancy is for the upper body to unwind to the feet because the feet have got friction, etc on their side. The narrower the corridor of turn and more across the hill the skis then the more the tendancy.
For example it's really, really hard to do pivot slips / bracquage without a pole plant. (It's possible, but you need a really, really strong core.)
Short swings are impossible without a pole plant.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FlyingStantoni,
Quote:
Short swings are impossible without a pole plant.
I think they are... but you need a really really strong core.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Quote:
Short swings are impossible without a pole plant.
I think they are... but you need a really really strong core.
In that case I can only conclude that I can't be doing them correctly yet! As I sure as hell haven't got a strong core!
I tend to explain flexion/extension a bit differently when I'm teaching - think of it this way - to get the most performance out of your skis, you want to get high edge angles. To do this, you want your body to be longest in the longest part of the radius of the turn - so in the fall line (cue some drawing in the snow of CoM/BoS paths, hard to explain in text). You can't stay fully extended throughout the whole turn with that much inclination, so flexing down (and angulation) is required to get the skis back underneath you and to stay balanced on them.
This relationship holds throughout any turn - a vertically stacked, skidded turn can be achieved without really flexing at all (and this is why flexing for the sake of it feels so weird for beginners - it doesn't do anything). The other side of that is a high performance short turn, where there's so little time to get that high edge on it's side then back under you, you really have to move vertically a lot to maintain balance on the ski. As you continue up the performance ladder, a lot of flexion/extension comes laterally rather than vertically.
Hope that makes sense, just woke up! I tend to teach to clients a little slower than one paragraph...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DaveC wrote:
Hope that makes sense, just woke up! I tend to teach to clients a little slower than one paragraph...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hey - One thing I have in common with La Vonn - dragging my inside pole.
Interesting to see it slowed down as at full speed I'd never guess so many poleplants.
After all it is free
After all it is free
altis, Great stuff - thanks for that.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
fatbob wrote:
Hey - One thing I have in common with La Vonn - dragging my inside pole.
That and the big ti...
[rant]
...anyway, you have to love the love the (Harb) PMTS guys. Every move a phantom one.
"Phantom moves...perfect"
[/rant]
Personally, I share her propensity to A frame. My word, look at 1:39 - shocking!!!!!!!
[rant]
(Slight admission here. Used to drink at the "Cup of Harb". I saw him teaching and skiing with a group in Hintertux last year. I've seen both great lesson delivery and great (IMHO) skiing. I saw neither. The disillusioned converts are the most vehement, etc)
[/rant]
Anyway...
Lindsey Vonn. Goddess. Who cares if she A frames occasionally.
Personally, I'm not fit to snowplough behind her...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
FlyingStantoni, you are supposed to up the Koolaid intake over time - that is where you failed!
I guess you have seen HH raving about her alignment and bashing her coaches for not fixing it... I think if I skied anything like as well as LVonn I'd happily settle for having a not corrected A-frame! My guess is the coaches are leaving well enough alone as whatever her alignment is or isn't it seems to be working for her.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
