Pole planting discuss?

A snowHead

How important is pole planting?
As I've been dry slope skiing with an advanced group on a weekly basis for quite a while and the instructor keeps stressing the importance of good pole planting. However, I ski better and feel more comfortable without pole planting. I don't even like carrying poles, as when I ski without poles my hand/arms/torso are in the correct well balanced position so don't feel the need to use poles. And using the pole plant as a trigger to turn upsets my rhythm causing me to A frame as well as causing me to be less dynamic.
does anyone else find poles a hinderance or do you find skiing with pole helpful?

A snowHead

davidb, I think not important (or even desirable) for carving on a wide, groomed piste; necessary though for short-radius, moguls, powder. That's just a holding answer until someone who knows what they're talking about turns up!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Whilst pole planting can be a good way to get a rythm going, especially in a mogul field I too don't think it's vital with modern carving skis, if it works for you fine, if not why worry

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I would not ski without them, in fact I usually carry a spare in case one gets lost or snapped. You would find doing kick turns on a steep slope, without poles, very difficult. I don't normally use a snowboard but if I did I would carry a pair of adjustable poles.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'd go with laundryman. They help with balance in any situation, but it's interesting how the ski pole has become a slimmer and less substantial thing over the years/centuries.

Poles are pretty handy for climbing, pushing and walking too, which boarders discover.

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davidb, More harm than good unless you know/are taught how to use them properly. Planting the pole incorrectly can throw your whole body out of shape and screw the turn up - I know, I do it Very Happy

laundryman, Has it summed up for the short-radius, steep and deep IMHO.

Apart from that I find them very good for blocking the queue jumpers that are usually just out of nappies.

CP

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Setting myself up for a fall-

Correct pole planting ensures that your arms are held forward (ideally in your field of vision) in the correct position to maintain optimum balance and weight distribution throughout your turn. If you aren't bothering to pole plant then often your arms tend to drop to a lazier position by your sides especially on easier slopes.

After all it is free

I tend to agree with the majority opinion here so far - more of a hinderance when you're actually moving, but pretty important when you're manoeuvering at very low speed (like in lift queue, kick turns, going uphill, picking way through trees). On the occasions when I put both poles in one hand and do the aeroplane thing I feel much more balanced - and generally then hold my hands higher than when holding poles in the normal position.

While I'm not entirely convinced about the psych effect of initiating the turn either, I did have an interesting experience the season before last. After taking a bit of a tumble I couldn't put any pressure at all on my shoulder, so pole planting was out of the question. Rather than sit feeling sorry for myself I skied for the remaining two days of the holiday with my left arm dangling by my side (although still holding the pole up out of harms way, back up under my armpit). It did take a bit more will-power to initiate the left-hand turns - particularly when jump turning down a steep slope - but on the whole my balance was much better, as I had to be much more conscious of body position and couldn't compensate with flailing an arm about! I did end up getting very tired and losing it big time at the end of the second day though, when my body/mind refused to make any turns at all part way through a scrubby wood.

I would say skiing without poles, or with both in one hand, is actually a very good exercise, but probably not recommendable as a mainstream style.

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Kramer, I agree with that comment.

If used properly, poles are a good way of keeping your timing correct for the start of a turn, esp short radius.

If carving, then yes you don't really use them

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I thought poles were meant for pivoting round, whilst leaning your full weight on them as you skid round each turn?

wink

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Of course, the real use for your poles is to depth charge when you're looking for your skis after you've lost them after lunching it in deep powder.

looking forward to what the more knowledgeable say (where are you, easiski?) but, in the meantime, not clear what use they are to a snowboarder. As a beginner, and useless, snowboarder, i think I could do myself serious injuries with poles, and it is so easy to stand up when you fall over (plenty of practice). I occasionally lend one to snowboarder son to propel himself in a lift queue but that is because he adopts the non-recommended practice of riding lifts with two feet in bindings. Very bad, apparently, and others have told me that some lift companies ban the practice. Personally, I pick up my board and walk in the queue. Or rather, I hardly ever board unless I can be guaranteed no queue and a whole chair to myself. I have been known to carry my board up in the chair, too, but probably only get away with that because I am an old lady.

As for ski-ing, I often ski without them and have never mastered the plant,despite some good lessons in the subject. Am told that better skiers find bumps very difficult without them, but I can only do bumps on blades anyway, so have yet to master the art.

BUT for almost all beginners, poles are a real problem. I have begged beginner friends to ski without them. They usually refuse, and hang on to them like grim death, like comfort blankets, white knuckled. Little kids in ski school are usually minus sticks - it gives me the willies to see little tinies with sticks that could take out their eyes (or someone else's). One of the benefits of blades is that it frees people from the tyranny of sticks.

This is a very interesting question, I'm glad someone has asked it, and I look forward to some interesting replies.

You know it makes sense.

Its fair comment to say that poles are not really needed if carving but I don't see how saying you can ski without poles actually leads anyone to not take them out.

The condition of pistes changes all the time, as can the weather. To turn out to ski without poles on the assumption that you are going to carve away in brilliant sunshine all day seems incredibly short sighted.
Have any of these peolpe never turned a corner and found a mogul field that wasn't there the day before, do they never ski any runs that push their limits?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

pam w, "not clear what use they are to a snowboarder"
If you had the misfortune to smash your bindings on an icy steep black/ off piste run, you would not be able to stop yourself unless you had something to dig into the snow.
But the other main use of them is to plant them in the snow about 10 metres before the blind brow of a hill to warn other slope users that there is a seating area for boarders coming up. snowHead

A snowHead

Dont use them on dry slope especially if its dednix dry slope. Poles jam in the holes and you keep moving. Ive got a thumb at a strange angle to prove these theory.

As for skiing without, to a point i can see the value especially when learning, as its just too much going on and i see alot of the pole out in skewer style like it would work as a brake.

Otherwise at a decent level you need them, if anything it helps with rythmn and upping the agression levels. Helps spotting take offs too i find.

Blades and poles, now thats a good look Very Happy

A snowHead

It's getting a bit late in the summer to plant poles, so I'd get out in the garden as soon as possible. Give them a good bedding in, a bit of horse manure, and don't forget to water them regularly.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My Uncle Gledhilliwski wouldn't be too impressed if you did that to him!

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Having learned to ski with poles, I feel a little "naked" if I ever try to ski without them. During the last lesson I had, we didn't pole plant at all when carving but used them quite a bit on short fast turns and moguls.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

comprex, I actually hold the poles just below the handle as I am a short person and even though the poles are the right size for me I find they get in the way and have on occasions got all tangled up with poles clipping skis causing me to fall very embrassing. I don't have the problem of banking as I ski with a wide stance and tend to face down the slope with my body projected forward over the centre of the skis.

2plank, As a child I was taught to ski like a racer by an Austrian instructor who said "it is better to ski efficiently and thats how racers ski. So I am going to teach how to race" So learnt how to ski with a wide stance down the fall-line projecting my body forward, even how to accelerate out of the turn by jetting all without poles he said "You ski with your legs not your arms. If your legs aren't doing the correct thing your arms won't help you." So I am able to ski an agressive line down the piste, and as I normally ski on short slalom skis 140-160. I can do short radius turns even swing turns without poles although all the jumping around is getting harder as I become less athletic.

rich, I actually ski with poles on denrix as the instructor always spends some time working on pole planting techniques. It is when I am skiing on my own I don't like using them. However, I will probably take my poles out with me and keep them in my pack then take them out for going over mogul fields the next time I go snow skiing.

laundryman, I don't actually go off-piste skiing as the people I go on holiday with are not as technically proficient as me, mainly because I spend a few hours a week working on my technique on plastic while they watch TV.

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With skis so short i can see why you dont use poles. Overgrown blades really.

Dont entirely agree with your comments though. Your arms get your body in the right position. So regardless of how good your legs are, they are no use if your body cant get them into the right position.

Poles and dendix, seriously dont do it.

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2plank, Yoy are right about the body position and the instructor was describing the use of poles to turn. As we had seen someone turn by plant the pole hard and skidding around it. To get the arm position correct ski he got us to pretending we where riding a mountain bike and are hands holding the handle bars. It really helped my skiing and is a good exercise when working on dynamic balance as your weight is slightly forward over the centre of the skis. However, I wouldn't advice changing to a racing bike or you'll end up in a tuck Laughing

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After all it is free

davidb, An interesting question.

No, I guess you don't need poles to use modern carvers on nice groomed easy slopes while carving. Heck you hardly need skill or technique either.

But once it gets steeper or trickier - bumps, steeps, powder, slalom, et al. then the correct use of poles is essential. For example, to turn properly on a bump using avalement, a correct pole plant sets the rest of your body and stance up for the turn. It's much harder without poles.

David Goldsmith, isn't that "slimmer lighter" thing merely a symptom of using better technology? If I could have bought a nice light, thin, unbreakable carbon pair 20 years ago I would have. I'm not aware that poles have become operationally reduced?

davidb, Wow! Interesting question. Kuwait Ian saw me skiing back in Feb. and he said “I can tell you’re a boarder, you don’t use your poles”. It’s weird, the moment I try to involve them in the practice of skiing, it all turns to ‘pants’(English colloquialism for sh*te), but if I’m not carrying them I feel unbalanced and out of control. It’s got to be some form of mental process that I can influence, but underlying this, there must be an instinctive muscle memory/response that told the first people to strap planks to their feet to pick up a stick.

Is carrying poles a genetically programmed instinct?

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I think we've all had occassion where a well timed push with a pole has stopped us going back bottom over tit, therefore they give us added confidence.

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Kramer, Yes, but our forbears did not have our opportunity to finesse the use of poles (or in their case ‘pole’). In my case, I do NOT use my poles in any meaningful sense, but without them I feel unbalanced. Is it possible that there’s a deeper physiological/mental instinct that influences the way we use ‘intruments’?

When you watch a good snowblader they’re erratic and awkward looking, but put them on skis (with poles) and they become fluid and smooth. Is it just the length of the ski? Time for some empirical experimentation?

This is an interesting thread . . !

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(Edit Downhill) Racers still have poles although they don't do much planting so I'm assuming there must be a balance benefit.

On Piste - If you are carving but don't know what to do with your poles then imagine a box just to the side of each foot. Keep the tips of each pole in these boxes - it helps get your upper body in the correct position relative to the slope - Helps prevent upper body rotation and the dropping of those hands.

In powder - it can be used as a testing stick to give you that split second advantage when the snow conditions change (e.g. from fluffy powder to windblown).

Another tip is the powder door (picked up from an off-piste book). To help prevent falling into the back seat by commiting to the turn when you plant the pole in powder. The tips of your skis and the pole plant should make the door, your body should take a path through the door. This is really useful for beginner powder skiers as it helps maintain good pole planting, rythm and stops that one turn then back seat traverse.

It's easier to find a ski and get up in powder with the help of ski poles.

Jump turns etc make use of the poles to support the skier.

I feel lost without my poles - perhaps because I'm a bad skier. They're invaluable on the paths - I tow my snowboarding, lazy daughter with mine!

You know it makes sense.

I like my poles.

When I ski without them, which I do quite often, I feel less balanced and have to be more attentive to keep my arms higher and/or project myself forwards. Carving on groomed doesn't seem to require a pole-plant. I think it's because there isn't a point when you need to unweight anymore, so the timing thing isn't so important. But somehow, I still feel better carrying the things even if not actually planting. Even short carved don't seem to require a pole-plant, but short-swinging, moguls, steeps, powder do as the timing and commitment thing comes back into it.

They also help me up, help me uphill, push off to start skating and tow my kids on flats, and allow me to prod people annoyingly.

Another thing. What of the positive pole-plant as compared to lightly brushing the snow with it? I used to lightly brush the snow with it as a timing thing but do a more positive plant when skiing shorter/more aggressively. Is there a proper method or a current vogue?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

DB, "Racers still have poles although they don't do much planting " - you won't be referring to slalom then? I think you'll find they do quite a lot of pole work. Fair enough, DH is a little analogous to carving, so no, they don't use their poles much there.

Masque, interesting pointg about snowbladers. Leaving aside my personal prejudices... (I mean everyone's a good blader as it's impossible to be a bad one, requires zero skill, etc.) I find the use of my Nordic Blading Poles when skating to make me about twice as fast and considerably more stable. http://www.nordicblading.com/portal/nordic_blading/english/

A snowHead

Can't believe this....!!

If you cruising around on Reds then their use may seem limited but you get anywhere tricky you really need them.
And you can forget about anywhere remotely steep without them. You will need to push off of them and the plant will keep you in the right position to turn. You can't plant a pole and get anything out of it in the 'back seat'.
If you never learn to use them properly you will serverely inhabit your skiing progress IMO.

The lacks of Poles also makes the snowboard a really poor way to get around the mountain, which is why you will see many on them carrying collapsables in their pack..

A snowHead

Poles? They're also great (and cheap) if you need a plumber in London. Although I think the French feel a little threatened.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

JT, me neither. I feel like throwing the book at people who say they prefer to ski without poles. rolling eyes

Mind you, cruising around on reds can IMHO require very little good technique at all, so perhaps some people are getting around "fine" wink

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JT, Yes I agree poles are important in my book. Correct planting of the poles helps prevent the "lurch" as I call it. That's when, instead of keeping the upper body looking down the the slope, the effort of turning tends to swing the uphill shoulder through 90 degrees, so that you are in extreme cases you are facing uphill, off balance, falling down the slope on your back head first.
A good exercise is to hold the ski poles out in front of you parallel to the slope and try swinging from left to right keeping the poles out in front parallel to the slope, and always looking down the mountain on the fall line as you swing backwards and forwards through it.

IMHO this exercise is pretty difficult to do without poles!!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DAVID SNELL,
Ah yes, the good old gorilla turn.....!!
Thats a very good reason to use poles properly ...!!!!

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DAVID SNELL, turning 90 degrees relative to the skis or the original direction of motion? Can't carve a 360 with shoulders still square to the fall line . ..

Ironically enough, I just spend the morning at the skate school, un-teaching some skiers. They would start a (180 degree) parallel turn on skates and keep the shoulders square to the original direction of motion until the feet were more than 45 degrees away, then try to 'catch up' with the upper body. What this did to the hips and front-to-back balance you cannot easily imagine, but they would invariably drop the inside shoulder and 'finish' the turn with an A-frame.

That 'parallel to the slope' (meaning horizon line in my understanding) of your instructions would have helped them immeasurably but they never learnt that bit. The skate school director would have frowned at my giving them poles to hold, unfortunately.

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After all it is free

GrahamN, Hi. Somebody else once told me, but I am not sure if they were having a laugh or not, that when you come swinging down the mountain from left to right, try to imagine that you are doing the "twist" as in Chubby Checker.

I suppose there is some mileage with this, in that you are looking forwards all the time, while swinging your hips. I am not quite sure whether the hip movements are same as in ski-ing, or quite where the pole plants fit with this technique!! Smile

GrahamN, I think the key operative word is "exercise"...

The ESF call them "aeroplane" turns - for use in perfectly groomed blues and reds where you are unlikey to come unstuck as an exercise....however, trying them steeper bumpier runs would be somewhat tricky!!

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imho, I think (as a good intermediate skier) that it is important to be able to use ski poles properly. In Austria we had countless excerises using poles. They are invaluable for initiating short turns - just a flick of the wrist.

Help!!

Pole planting discuss?

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