What level of instructor do customers really need?

A snowHead

I got into this as a bit of a splinter debate in the Eurotest thread where I noted that the ISTD holders (and pro ETers) seemed to be holding out an argument that ski instructors couldn't really be trusted to do a good job without ISTDs around them.

I have no doubt that ISTD may well be better all round skiers and instructors than the minions (though not necesarily as IMV its a mistake to confuse structured progression within a system with general skiing development and skill level) but it seems pretty clear that the vast majority of customers don't care about their instructors' qualifications. I thought I'd ask the question from the customer angle as to what they want and need.

My observations:

1 There seems to be a lot of self serving rhetoric about how customers don't really know what they want so there need to be standards to give it to them.

2 A lot more lesson days would be taken by Brit customers IMV if ski schools offered more flexible offerings - would I sign up to a week's group lessons? No, a couple of hours group tune-up session priced appropriately? Why not. Cheaper tuition from lower qualified instructors on off peak weeks- that might work.

3 The old joke : How much experience do you need to be a snowboard instructor? One day more than your pupils. While alpine tuition is all very interesting I suspect many Brits still get their first formative tuition at local dryslopes or domes. If the industry really believes that its important that beginners get the very best tuition why does L1 even exist.

4 In my view learning is more about meshing with the instructor's style and hoping you'll pick up some useful stuff along the way. In this regard I really don't care about instructor qualification provided they are a better skier than me and in fact have learnt heaps from just following better non-instructor skiers around. Equally I like the benefit of an experienced set of eyes on me as I can't see myself ski and I appreciate the instructor system provides a decent framework for developing obsevational skills. I should add that I'm a bad learner in that if I don't feel I'm skiing at a reasonable level to start with its only likely to go downhill from there so being in the right mental frame of mind is important.

A snowHead

I think the answer might depends what level the pupil is.

I've only been skiing 6/7 years - so memories of my beginner lessons are still (relatively) fresh - but looking back, the instructors probably weren't of a particularly high standard or qualification. However, at this stage it didn't really matter.

I guess what I'm saying is getting someone to link snowplough turns can't really be compared to analysing faults/problems of more advanced skiers.

I'm still at a relatively early stage in my skiing (I managed to fit in about 3-weeks a year over the last 6/7 years), but now I take the view that if I'm going let someone assess/tinker around with my skiing technique (something I've worked really hard on recently), I'd like to be reassured that they're at the top of their game and I'm not going to go-away with more bad habits / wrong ideas than I already have!

So for me instructor levels offer some measure of reassurance.

(edited for spelling/grammar)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

http://www.basi.org.uk/content/alpine-level-3-isia.aspx

In more detail

http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/Precourse_info_booklet_v5_Aug%2010.pdf

From that booklet it's just the last 4 pages that only apply to the top level, ISTD.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Simply the BEST, better than all the rest!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

slikedges, Haven't read it properly and its answering the question from teh perspective of a structured body not the customer.

However I note the following

"BASI members must treat all snow users (snowboarders, alpine, Nordic, Telemark and adaptive skiers) with due respect and should encourage their clients to act in a similar manner."

Obviously bladers, snowbikers and monoskiers remain fair game wink

You'll need to Register first of course.

I think I agree with 2, but not necessarily with 4, at least so far as the ability of the instructor is concerned. I offer no comment on 1 or 3, but clearly we need new instructors coming into the business and they all have to start somewhere. To me, it is all a matter of communication, not of ability and "Do what I say, not what I do" can work in some cases. This is a very personal matter though, because we all learn in different ways and I certainly go for the analytical approach.

As an example, I am a terminal intermediate skier who has for some long time been trying to get the better of carving my turns. I have tried group lessons, one-to-one private tuition and small workshops, all to no avail. It was my wife, who is the most timid skier you will ever see and who most certainly cannot carve her turns, who gave me the piece of information I needed. We were looking at a set of tracks where I had tried to carve a turn and failed and it was she who identified the underlying problem (and had an exercise to address it!). OK, so I still cannot carve my turns as consistently as I would like, but at least I know what I am trying to do now and can make slow progress towards my goal.

No, I haven't ever had a lesson with an ISTD, but I have had lessons from just about every other level of instructor, and several coaches as well. Maybe teaching style is something that is developed as an instructor works through the grades, but I have not seen any evidence of this. What I think is really needed is a passion for communication, rather than a reliance on a technique that is tried and trusted. I have experienced many instructors telling me that I am not doing something correctly, but in my experience that ability to put a finger on the exact nature of the problem and to be able to suggest a good way forward is extremely rare. The solutions offered have all been generalities, but skiing is a very individual sport.

Over to others to shoot me down.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

fatbob, As a 'punter' I couldn't honestly tell you what level of instructors I have been taught by. I wouldn't even know what badges to look for. So long as they seem to know what to teach me, how to teach it to me, how to spot when I get it right/wrong and most importantly inspire enough confidence in me to do what they ask (i.e. I trust them to know what I am capable of), then it doesn't really matter to me what qualifications they hold.

After all it is free

fatbob, yep, it's in the charter - automatic expulsion for any BASI member showing respect to those groups wink

Seriously though, wouldn't expect anyone to read through that lot (I know I haven't). Just there to illustrate to anyone interested just how involved it is to get to ISIA.

Megamum, abj, Would it matter to you though given these hypothetical scenarios.

1) You decide you want to go on a ski holiday for the first time so you need some lessons.
2) You book lessons with a "ski instructor" of course you assume a ski instructor is a ski instructor.
3) You pay 30 pound instead of 50 pound because you think "well they are advertising the same thing, a ski lesson is a lesson, so I will go with the cheaper option"
4) You take lessons to achieve the level you want initially and it takes 10 hours at £300. You pay it you are none the wiser.

Now if I told you this was an option

1) The same
2) I advise you to go with the 50 pound option based on the level of the two instructors
3) You pick the 50 pound option
4) It takes 5 hours to achieve the same goal at a cost of £250 giving you more time to enjoy your new skills and was cheaper.

Which would you pick?

A worse case scenario is they are charging the same and as you say how are you meant to know the difference between level 1 to 4. These scernarios 'could' happen for every type of client if there were no rules on what levels each instructor can teach.

Of course qualifications don’t always 100% percent reflect ability and a level 2 might be the world’s best ski instructor. Although as stated by abj,

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

The ability of the instructor matters, no matter what level of the students. Whether that's strictly correspondent to their qualification is a different matter.

Yes, anyone who's better than you can teach you. But whether they're "better" is not always obvious. So what they "teach" is also questionable. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

If you're not paying for it, none of that matters. But if you're paying, repeatedly, for lessons, it's important to get the "best" instruction, which may or may not be the "highest level qualified" one.

snow reports

fatbob, I've had friends that took group beginner lesson and then my instructor and I joined them after that and skied a couple of runs and gave them 'tips'... The general feeling is the difference between a 'just an instructor' and a "full cert" is HUGE... most agree if they had to pay a premium to have the better instructor it would be worthwhile...

YMMV - but I'd not choose to put someone that I really wanted to learn to ski into a lesson with less than a very experienced ISIA(stamp)... I'd prefer an instructor that was around ISTD level -not nec ISTD - eg APSI 4(was 3) is very similar level as is CSIA 4... The certs themselves don't mean much as is.... but up the chance of getting a 'good one' ...

I know the difference between the various folks I've lessoned with - and who I'd pick for different things... but I doubt most folks get enough lesson experience to pick and choose like that... so I guess the main thing is - if you don't improve after a couple of lessons and some practice - go back and ask for a change... and if you get told it is you that cannot learn/is the worst student ever etc demand a refund and run!

I've had a few lessons in the last couple of years from a variety of ISIA's, ISTD's, etc. Last month, after not having had lessons with her for about the same time, I had one 90 minute lesson with easiski. Picked up more on fundamental issues with my skiing in that one lesson than all the others put together. I think her qualifications precede the current setup but old BASI Grade 1, french equivalence, blah, blah.

You know it makes sense.

Colin B, yep and she epitomises the very experienced part of my description... that experience allows the folks that continue to learn from everyone they come across to have many many many ways to skin a cat... and efficiently/effectively skin that cat too... Wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

jjc, OK, so now put yourself in Joe/Joesephine punter's shoes. It's the first time they've gone skiing, they've decided to do a DIY trip no TO. They've borrow/begged stolen some warm clothes and think they will find a hire shop in resort for gear. They then think they will book some ski lessons, but have never found SH's (or similar). Would they recognise BASI (I didn't until I found SH's and by then I'd skied as a oridinary holiday punter for 4 years), would they recognise ISTD? I certainly wouldn't have done so. No I think they would do what I would do they would Google ski instructors and book whatever type of beginner lesson they could afford, or find the nearest shop in resort and ask for beginner lessons. The company they booked with would, you hope, do the responsible thing and give them an appropriate instructor, but I bet they would never know what level of instructor they had been assigned, nor would they be likely to know if that level was sufficient even if they were told. They are just looking for someone that could teach them to ski, if someone appears in a uniform that screams, 'I am some sort of instructor' then most punters would think, well that's OK, and if they come back having made some sort of progress and have had a good time, I would expect them to feel that they had received 'value for money'.

Even now, yes I've skied a bit, and I've knocked around on SH's for a while, but if you were to ask me what level of instructor should be teaching me, I will be honest and say that I wouldn't know what qualification level that should be. I just explain what level of skier I think I am and leave it to chance. A straw poll of SH's to see if folks know what level of qualification their last instructor had might be interesting!

jjc, If I had the knowledge and advice to make the decision in your example I would pick the cheaper option, but as a punter how do know enough to make that decision - please tell me, I'd love to learn to ski without paying through the nose for the chance to do so.

A snowHead

Megamum, If the ski school advertised "basic beginner lesson" and "premium beginner lesson" you believe no-one would go more than basic? I think ski hire disproves that as plenty of folks hire a more than basic level pair of skis don't they? Or do the ski hire places just have those on offer to look fancier?

A snowHead

little tiger, but the thing is they don't, do they?

For example here is a phrase taken from a ski school that we have previously used:

Our team consists of 35 professional and state qualified ski instructors and high mountain guides who can all teach in french and other languages

That's about the only comment re: qualifications that I can find on their web site. It doesn't tell you what levels they are qualified to, what that level means, or perhaps for anyone that understands things a statement whcih says instructors of level X teach class Y.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, I agree entirely with what your saying. My point is exactly that, why would you know and why should you know the standards. This thread has stemmed from a debate on another thread in which some argue the level of instructor that should be allowed to work in some areas should be lowered. Eg an ISIA should be able to work where ever they want.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

I had a fairly lengthy exchange of emails with an English school in Zermatt a couple of years ago. I know that in Switzerland there isn't the same rigour around who can teach there and as I was booking 6 hours of private lessons at about 500 SwFr I insisted on at least an ISIA and they agreed to that.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

jjc,

You'll need to Register first of course.

^ Why would you expect a lower instructor to pass on bad habits? If they do, there must be some problem with the system that passed them...

IMO, the content of that first week of skiing (ie up to around parallel on most blues/EASY red, depending on group) is not particularly demanding (to teach), and for 95% of skiers the most important thing in this situation is an instructor who knows how to teach, and there's no reason why that shouldn't be a base level. Fair enough though there are some people who would really benefit form the extra experience of a ISTD - thinking people who are, say, hugely overweight, no sports experience, scared on getting a snowflake in the eye, etc, with a guest like that it helps to have a very deep toolbox.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

clarky999,

After all it is free

Appreciate the gulf between a beginner's lesson from a L1 vs a L4 is vast - but would it really be that different between a L3 and a L4?

Okay, so let's throw another factor into the debate......

Who would be the better instructor for my beginner friend:-

a) An experienced BASI L2 who hasn't progressed any higher as he has a full time job to support his family and just instructs 6 weeks a year "for fun". He's a native English speaker and an excellent teacher.

b) An Italian ISTD who works all winter as an instructor but only has broken English and struggles to clearly communicate.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

beanie1,

Well in modules there are:

4 parts to the Level 1
2 parts to the Level 2
8 parts to the Level 3
9 parts to the Level 4

Total Modules for a Level 3 to Complete = 14

Total Modules for a Level 4 to Complete = 23

So a fair difference. The gap between an ISIA and a Level 1 is 10 modules where the gap between an ISIA and an ISTD is 9 modules. Therefore difference between an ISIA and an ISTD is the same(almost) as the difference between ISIA and Level 1.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

jjc james, so would I as a punter be able to tell the difference, and as an early intermediate would I need the difference between instructors of different grades?

snow reports

Megamum,

Yes you should be able to tell the difference. To give an example, when coaching the guys for the Eurotest its clear that the guys who have done the ISTD tech and teach understand everything easier. They have much more in depth knowledge of skills and there application. They should therefore be able to past this on to their clients.

Wether you need the difference is up to you if they are both available. There is no where it is not possible for a level 2 or ISIA to work. I have worked as many have in europe as a level 2, ISIA and ISTD. So many people have had me whilst i have been at these levels.

I believe that as an ISTD i now give better lessons than i did before.

The most important thing I look for in a instructor is can he communicate. He may be highly qualified but if he cannot put it across you will not learn.

You know it makes sense.

riverman, Your 100% right. I would suggest looking for both because if he or she is highly qualified and can communicate then you can have confidence your learning the right things.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

ski, I would of hoped so, but recent experiences and observations of some family and friends learning to ski proved me wrong. In these cases it was actually more like 1 hour with my advised instructor compared to 10 hours elsewhere.

A snowHead

OK, so how do I find out what level of instructor I need, and then how do I know (short of a direct question which seems a bit presumptious) if I've got a suitably qualified instructor. Do you folks sport badges on your sleeves like girl guides/scouts that I should look out for? Or is there a web site I can look up level I am at vs. type of instructor needed. Or is this where you trust the ski school - you tick the level of skier that you are on the booking form and they deliver a suitably qualified person to teach you. If so do the ski schools have to sign up to membership of some sort of international vetting that gives me confidence in this process that I should look for?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, ski schools will often just give you whoever is in the right place at the right time especially if you book last minute. So I'd advise to simply ask, at the end of the day its your cash your handing over.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

jjc james, OK, so now I'm back to:

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

N.B. I'm not having a dig at all you highly qualified instructors - I think it is great that you are as highly qualified as you all are, but perhaps these would be appreciated more if ski schools perhaps put more information about this sort of thing on their web sites.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Megamum, Some do, for instance the school I mentioned above in Zermatt gave all their (English) instructors qualification. A lot of English schools in France seem to too.

http://www.summitskischool.com/aboutuspages/qualifications.html and http://www.summitskischool.com/aboutuspages/team.html

http://www.skinewgen.com/our-team/tignes.html

http://www.tdcski.com/tignes/about_tdc/our_team

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

slikedges,

After all it is free

Colin B, That's what I had in mind - well done those ski schools!

Megamum, or even http://www.jjc-training.co.uk/james.html wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Help!!

What level of instructor do customers really need?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees